Structural Engineering: 2007-04-01

Saturday, April 7, 2007

Re: Lumber Species in Phoenix

The lumber that is readily available in lumber yards in Phoenix is Douglas Fir. You can special order the other species
---- bcainse@aol.com wrote:
> Rich-
> Try (602) 225-0980 from the website www.homedepot.com . <ROTFL>
> Regards,
> Bill Cain SE
> Berkeley CA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: seaint04@lewisengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 5:48 AM
> Subject: RE: Lumber Species in Phoenix
>
>
> Daryl,
>
> I was hoping asking the question on the List was like calling a local phoenix engineer. I didn't expect a simple question to generate such a negative backlash. Here in East Texas you can only buy Southern Pine No. 2 unless you special order lumber. I assumed, and maybe wrongly, that there would be a predominate lumber species sold in Phoenix. I assumed, and maybe wrongly, that it would be Doug Fir, since it is near the west coast. I would think they would import southern pine, but maybe I'm wrong. That is why I ask. I thought Hem-Fir was mostly a north-eastern wood. I didn't realize they were on the west coast too.
>
> All I want to know is what the predominate species of lumber is in Phoenix. Maybe I should just find a Home Depot to call. Can anyone give me that number? :o)
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
> From: Daryl Richardson [mailto:h.d.richardson@shaw.ca]
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:16 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Lumber Species in Phoenix
>
> Rich,
>
> Why not just phone an engineer in Phoenix and ask? If this project is a go you'll probably want to retain a local engineer to do at least some of the routine inspections in order to save your client a massive amount of travel expenses.
>
> Regards,
>
> H. Daryl Richardson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Topete
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Lumber Species in Phoenix
>
> Or, to say the client a day's worth of your travel to field verify, assume a very low value of Fb, say 1,000 psi, and MoE, maybe 1.5e6 psi. Then, go forward with a very conservative design. You could even isolate the equipment framing by calling for LVL or PSL engineered lumber, and forgetting that the existing framing is providing support. Just some thoughts…
>
> David A. Topete, SE
>
>
>
>
> From: sscholl2@juno.com [mailto:sscholl2@juno.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:45 AM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Lumber Species in Phoenix
>
> I suggest that you verify blocking,sizes of members, notches, dimensions of supports, allowable deflection, etc. by a visit to the site or else qualify your comments accordingly.
> Stan Scholl, P.E.
> Laguna Beach, CA
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

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Re: COPIES OF PLANS

When you did this work were you the prime or were you
a consultant to an architect or other professional.
If so you may want to check with them.

You might want to give the Owner a call to understand
why he needs the documents and what he intends to do
with them. This might be an opportunity to provide
some additional services.

Depending on the nature of the discussion with the
Owner it may be appropriate to point out copyright
issues, and or the fact that actual construction may
not exactly reflect what was on the plans.

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Re: Stone house

I have seen the pyramids in Egypt and the Parthanon but consider them to
be not similar to anything like the walls of a house. The pyramids have
no walls and thus cannot fail like a wall can. The Parthanon is also
semi-grossly stable in that the columns are several feet in diameter, as
I recall. Also the stone is cut finely and can slide slightly without
much failure.

I would think that a way to handle stone walls of a house or similar
building would be to use 2"-4" gunite/concrete with some reinf.and anchor
bolts -on the inside to stabilize/strengthen the structure. This is how
we often reinforce brick buildings in Calif.

Stan Scholl, P.E.
Laguna Beach, CA

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Re: COPIES OF PLANS

Daryl,

It's about the same here, and you comments are absolutely relevant (as always).

I looked up documents many times.

I have no reason to deny permission to publish in this particular case, but I just wanted to do it right.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: Daryl Richardson

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:03

Subject: Re: COPIES OF PLANS

Steve,

        You and I live in different countries so my comments here may be totally not applicable. Never-the-less, here they are,

        Here in the City of Calgary, Alberta, Canada, anyone can go to the Planning Department and view any documents on file. There is no charge for this unless the documents must be retrieved from "long term storage", in which case there is a $45.00 (+-) charge. I have personally made use of this service several times and I have never been required to identify myself or give reasons. That said, they will not allow copying of any documents bearing an architect's or engineer's stamp without written permission; their explanation for taking this position is that copyright infringement is involved.

        I assume you could deny permission (except, possibly in cases of legitimate "need to know" situations such as building repairs or renovations) otherwise there would be no reason to even ask.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

RE: COPIES OF PLANS

I do not believe that is true. They ARE in the public domain insofar as they are a public record. As such they are fully reviewable by anyone that wants to see them. But unlike most legal documents, they are not reproducible, as that runs afoul of copyright laws. So for some jurisdictions that use remote storage or microfiche, this does effectively remove them from being publicly available, a rather interesting Catch-22.

From: David L. Fisher [mailto:dfisher@fpse.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 9:02 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: COPIES OF PLANS

Steve:

Did they say why they want to release them?

The drawings are your “instruments of service” and are not in the public domain.

David L. Fisher SE PE

Senior Director

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman

Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers - Cayman

980 North Michigan Ave #1640 Chicago 60611

75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI

319 A Street Boston 02210

312.573.1701

312.573.1726 facsimile

312.622.0409 mobile

www.fpse.com

www.ccgch.com

From: S. Gordin [mailto:mailbox@sgeconsulting.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:58 AM
To: Seaint
Subject: COPIES OF PLANS

Good Saturday morning,

I received an official request from the city to allow the release (copying) of my plans on file.

I never done that before.

Is it just a formality?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

Re: COPIES OF PLANS

Steve,

You and I live in different countries so my comments here may be totally not applicable. Never-the-less, here they are,

Here in the City of Calgary, Alberta, Canada, anyone can go to the Planning Department and view any documents on file. There is no charge for this unless the documents must be retrieved from "long term storage", in which case there is a $45.00 (+-) charge. I have personally made use of this service several times and I have never been required to identify myself or give reasons. That said, they will not allow copying of any documents bearing an architect's or engineer's stamp without written permission; their explanation for taking this position is that copyright infringement is involved.

I assume you could deny permission (except, possibly in cases of legitimate "need to know" situations such as building repairs or renovations) otherwise there would be no reason to even ask.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: S. Gordin

To: Seaint

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 9:57 AM

Subject: COPIES OF PLANS

Good Saturday morning,

I received an official request from the city to allow the release (copying) of my plans on file.

I never done that before.

Is it just a formality?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

Re: COPIES OF PLANS

David,

The request is from the city I know quite well, and includes a notarized request from the building owner representative, etc.

My question is more about if there is something particular I need to do here, or should I just sign and fax the form?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: David L. Fisher

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 09:02

Subject: RE: COPIES OF PLANS

Steve:

Did they say why they want to release them?

The drawings are your "instruments of service" and are not in the public domain.

David L. Fisher SE PE

Senior Director

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman

Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers - Cayman

980 North Michigan Ave #1640 Chicago 60611

75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI

319 A Street Boston 02210

312.573.1701

312.573.1726 facsimile

312.622.0409 mobile

www.fpse.com

www.ccgch.com

RE: COPIES OF PLANS

Steve:

Did they say why they want to release them?

The drawings are your “instruments of service” and are not in the public domain.

David L. Fisher SE PE

Senior Director

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman

Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers - Cayman

980 North Michigan Ave #1640 Chicago 60611

75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI

319 A Street Boston 02210

312.573.1701

312.573.1726 facsimile

312.622.0409 mobile

www.fpse.com

www.ccgch.com

From: S. Gordin [mailto:mailbox@sgeconsulting.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:58 AM
To: Seaint
Subject: COPIES OF PLANS

Good Saturday morning,

I received an official request from the city to allow the release (copying) of my plans on file.

I never done that before.

Is it just a formality?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

COPIES OF PLANS

Good Saturday morning,

I received an official request from the city to allow the release (copying) of my plans on file.

I never done that before.

Is it just a formality?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

Re: Stone house

Thanks Harold,
I prefer to call him the Great Engineer. I think I will take your
approach and design it as masonry. Given your replies in the past, I
think I owe you several cases of beer but it will have to be Canadian beer.
Gary

Harold Sprague wrote:
> I struggled with this a while back. The reality is that structural
> stone walls are the oldest building material that there is. There are
> stone structures in seismic areas that have been there for thousands
> of years. The Parthenon is in a relatively high seismic area and is
> still standing and it has no reinforcing. The Great Pyramid at Giza
> is still standing. It also is not reinforced, but rebar wasn't widely
> used in masonry until the 20th century.
>
> Stone was manufactured a long time ago, but the Manufacturer (note
> cap) does not have an advocate in the code development community.
> However, the Manufacturer of stone also created the environmental
> forces including gravity that the stone must resist.
>
> Not having an advocate means that there is no representation on the
> MSJC and therefore no specific provisions in the ACI 350 nor the
> building code. That said, why can't it be designed as masonry? You
> can still put rebar in it, and you can still determine an f'm. Design
> it as reinforced masonry. After all CMU is just a lot of stones glued
> together. Bricks are very tiny stones mashed together than cooked.
> The code does not specifically preclude designing with reinforcing in
> stone. You just have to do a lot more engineering without a lot of
> guidance.
>
> You will also have to use your judgment regarding cover, but it should
> not be much different than CMU regarding porosity.
>
> Look on the bright side. With no specific code on reinforced stone
> masonry, who can tell you that you are wrong? Of course if the
> Manufacturer tells you that you are wrong the lightning strike can
> leave a nasty mark.
>
>
> Regards,
> Harold Sprague
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <ghodgson@bellnet.ca>
>> Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>> To: seaint@seaint.org
>> Subject: Re: Stone house
>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:35:22 -0400
>>
>> Fellow listers,
>> I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone
>> house for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he
>> should build a house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if
>> anyone out there has any words of wisdom or warning.
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>>
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Re: Stone house

Thanks Daryl,
Actually, I got the name of a British stone mason as he has been doing
work on historic buildings through Public Works Canada which may be
another source for me.
Gary

Daryl Richardson wrote:
> Gary,
>
> This is new to me also so I'm winging it.
>
> The two things I would be most concerned about are having a
> good foundation and preventing moisture from passing through the
> walls. I'm certain you can take care of the foundation part. Would
> your client consider a stone veneer house? If so this would turn it
> back into a conventional house.
>
> Sorry I can't provide any better information than this.
> Perhaps some architect that specializes in historic restorations may
> have some ideas. Another possibility is National Research Council.
> They have done quite a lot of work on building envelopes
>
> Regards,
>
> H. Daryl Richardson
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc."
> <ghodgson@bellnet.ca>
> To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 4:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Stone house
>
>
>> Fellow listers,
>> I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone
>> house for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he
>> should build a house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if
>> anyone out there has any words of wisdom or warning.
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>>
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Re: Stone house

Gary,
I think you have a great name. I am located in Niagara Falls, Ontario.
If you have been here, you will know that there are a lot of stone
houses, built of Queenston limestone. However, finding people who know
what they doing with stone is difficult as those who are knowledgeable
are scarce and busy. Consequently, a local school has started up in an
old stone mansion to teach the students old technologies, the idea being
that they won't necessarily be artisans but rather knowledgeable
managers, curators, supervisors, etc although they can do the work if
they wish. I made initial contact with them because of my problem. I
have also found a name of a old hand British stone mason who emigrated
to Canada and he may be available. However as it is field-stone, I want
to find out more rather than cut limestone.
Gary

Gary Loomis wrote:
> We provide structural assessments and design of repairs/renovations of historic structures and the issue of stone walls including dry laid has come up in the past. We could not find any historic information on the evaluation or design of these walls. Currently we are involved with a project near Lancaster, PA evaluating a house constructed of iron stone and brown stone and a covered bridge supported by brownstone piers. The house is from the mid 1700's and the bridge mid 1800's. Also, there are plenty of houses in the area built of field stone.
>
> We have a 3rd generation stone mason on staff as a mechanical engineer. There are guidelines that have been handed down from generation to generation. He has repaired a 3 story home constructed of field stone. The wall was 16" thick increasing to 24" thick at the foundation. He also said the weak straw is the mortar and use the strength of the mortar - usually Type M. Is there an experienced stone mason in the area that is doing the work? We typically analyze the wall as unreinforced masonry based on working stress methodology and select an allowable stress based on the mortar. If it is an existing wall we have our stone mason also visually inspect it. He also is able to tap into his resources for information.
>
> Where are you located? Are there other stone houses in the area? If so go and look how they are constructed. Are there experienced stone masons in the area? Talk with them. Most of them have a wealth of information to share. If they don't, do not let them near the project. Sometimes we get to wrapped up in the analysis and what does the computer say.
>
> Gary Loomis, PE
>
>
>
> Fellow listers,
> I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone
> house for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he should
> build a house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if anyone
> out there has any words of wisdom or warning.
> Gary
>
>
>
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RE: Stone house

We provide structural assessments and design of repairs/renovations of historic structures and the issue of stone walls including dry laid has come up in the past. We could not find any historic information on the evaluation or design of these walls. Currently we are involved with a project near Lancaster, PA evaluating a house constructed of iron stone and brown stone and a covered bridge supported by brownstone piers. The house is from the mid 1700's and the bridge mid 1800's. Also, there are plenty of houses in the area built of field stone.

We have a 3rd generation stone mason on staff as a mechanical engineer. There are guidelines that have been handed down from generation to generation. He has repaired a 3 story home constructed of field stone. The wall was 16" thick increasing to 24" thick at the foundation. He also said the weak straw is the mortar and use the strength of the mortar - usually Type M. Is there an experienced stone mason in the area that is doing the work? We typically analyze the wall as unreinforced masonry based on working stress methodology and select an allowable stress based on the mortar. If it is an existing wall we have our stone mason also visually inspect it. He also is able to tap into his resources for information.

Where are you located? Are there other stone houses in the area? If so go and look how they are constructed. Are there experienced stone masons in the area? Talk with them. Most of them have a wealth of information to share. If they don't, do not let them near the project. Sometimes we get to wrapped up in the analysis and what does the computer say.

Gary Loomis, PE

Fellow listers,
I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone
house for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he should
build a house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if anyone
out there has any words of wisdom or warning.
Gary

>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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> *

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Friday, April 6, 2007

Re: Geotech Reports

Sorry for provoking this reply by my misleading post, Charles. When I read back over my post, I realised I forgot to mention how I include the geotech report. I certainly don't reproduce it on the plans. I guess I skipped mentioning that, because it seems to me it is so obviously a bad idea, for several reasons, including the practicality of placing several pages of text and bore logs on my drawing, and the fact that that work belongs to another engineer.
I add it at the end of my specifications book, without referencing it in the Table of Contents of my Specs. I mention the report in my specs section on earthworks, mention that it is a part of the contract documents, and that a copy can be found at the end of the specs book. I think it is clear that it is the work of the engineer who signed and sealed it, and not under my seal and signature. In my opinion, I do not render myself liable for his work, since he was hired by the owner as a separate consultant and signs and seals his own report. At least, not any more liable than I already am in the context where all professionals may get sued when there is a serious problem.

I still think it is essential to ensure that the bidders have all the geotech information, and that my providing a copy is a service to my client by facilitating the task of bidders, maybe encouraging more accurate bids with fewer unknowns.
I don't think that simply telling the bidders that they can get the report from the geotech is any less liable than providing a copy, and it certainly complicates the bidding process.

We try to add little services like that when we can. It's called adding value at little or no extra cost. There is a great little book about it, called "The Fred Factor", by Mark Sanborn. It's a real eye-opener for many people, especially for those engineers who think engineers are special people who deserve to be treated like kings. But don't get me started, it's late ...

Kevin

On 4/3/07, Charles R. Ashley Jr. <charles@advanceeng.net> wrote:

To coin a familiar phrase in talk-radio: "Long time reader, first time poster", so here goes:

I have major concerns with "copying" the full report and including it on my plans.

The basic fact is it is not my work. Therefore, why should I include it on my plans? Wouldn't I therefore make myself liable for any mistakes made by the geotech? Am I violating professional practice laws, by certifying (via my stamp on my plans) someone else's work over whom I have no review or authority aka "responsible charge" ?

Where does that stop? Why shouldn't I include the arborist report since it says I cannot encroach on any existing trees on the site? Why not the civil plans showing all the existing utilities and their interaction with my footings? Seriously. This is a slippery slope.

And of all things to put on your plans, geotech info? The most heavily qualified, "this is our best guess", "good-luck in the field", "wow, we didn't get that in our borings" profession I deal with? Not on my plans. Besides, any one ever not had a geotech get out in the field, and then change his recommendations or is that just my experience alone? Ok, so they change them, do I reprint my plans each time a revision is made? In some municipalities, wouldn't that subject my plans to another plan review? And again, because of someone else's work?

The fact remains one of the most significant reasons there are very few one-stop shops (architect, structural, EMP in one firm) is due to separation of liabilities. Like it our not, it is true. In those firms, if a mistake is made, there is no one else to blame. So people specialized. Each person does what he/she is good at, and relies on the fact that others on the team are good at what they do. And if there is a problem, it diffuses the blame nicely. (Just being honest.)

When I have plan checkers ask for that I respond with my statement above: "It's not my work, and it is not ethical or legal for me to place it on my plans." And if they insist, then I ask them to write a memo on bldg dept letter head directing me to be unethical and violate the law. I have yet to get one of those letters.

"Thanks for taking my call."

Charles R. Ashley Jr., P.E.

Advance Engineering

From: Kevin Below [mailto:kbofoz@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 7:54 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Geotech Reports

I always include the full report, because the geotech will sometimes point out potential difficulties with the site and I want the bidders to have as much info as I have. I don't want to forget even a comma. I copy any of his recommendations that I want to follow to the drawings or specs, so as to be clear what I require vs the recommendations.

On 4/2/07, Jim Lutz <Jim.Lutz@bhcconsultants.com> wrote:

What I usually see is either a geotechnical report referenced as available for inspection by bidders, or the boring logs and lab test results included as an attachment to the specs.

Owners have an obligation to share their knowledge of existing conditions with bidders, such as subsurface investigations, hazardous material surveys, etc. The literature is full of construction claim judgments against Owners who failed to do so. Sharing the geotechnical engineer' s opinions and design recommendations may or may not be a good idea, depending on the intended use of the information . I think it is normally best just to share all hard data and let the bidder be responsible for its interpretation.

Jim Lutz, P.E., S.E .

720 3rd Avenue, Suite 1200

Seattle, WA 98104-1820

206 505 3400 Ext 126

206 505 3406 (Fax)

Re: Stone house

I struggled with this a while back. The reality is that structural stone
walls are the oldest building material that there is. There are stone
structures in seismic areas that have been there for thousands of years.
The Parthenon is in a relatively high seismic area and is still standing and
it has no reinforcing. The Great Pyramid at Giza is still standing. It
also is not reinforced, but rebar wasn't widely used in masonry until the
20th century.

Stone was manufactured a long time ago, but the Manufacturer (note cap) does
not have an advocate in the code development community. However, the
Manufacturer of stone also created the environmental forces including
gravity that the stone must resist.

Not having an advocate means that there is no representation on the MSJC and
therefore no specific provisions in the ACI 350 nor the building code. That
said, why can't it be designed as masonry? You can still put rebar in it,
and you can still determine an f'm. Design it as reinforced masonry. After
all CMU is just a lot of stones glued together. Bricks are very tiny stones
mashed together than cooked. The code does not specifically preclude
designing with reinforcing in stone. You just have to do a lot more
engineering without a lot of guidance.

You will also have to use your judgment regarding cover, but it should not
be much different than CMU regarding porosity.

Look on the bright side. With no specific code on reinforced stone masonry,
who can tell you that you are wrong? Of course if the Manufacturer tells
you that you are wrong the lightning strike can leave a nasty mark.

Regards,
Harold Sprague

>From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <ghodgson@bellnet.ca>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Re: Stone house
>Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:35:22 -0400
>
>Fellow listers,
>I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone house
>for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he should build a
>house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if anyone out there has
>any words of wisdom or warning.
>Gary
>
>
>>
>>
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Re: Weak axis moment frame K Value

Daryl,

Thanks for your response. Yes, your response makes sense. The reason I did not check the K value in the other direction (in the strong direction of the column) is because it is part of a braced frame and I am using K = 1.0 in that direction.

This is a stadium that I am reviewing which has braced frames in the radial direction for which I am using a K = 1.0 and a perimeter moment frame (which incidentally has beams framing into the column's weak axis) for which i want to use K > 1.0

Hope this makes more sense.

Thanks
Anantha
Daryl Richardson <h.d.richardson@shaw.ca> wrote:

Anantha,

You have to check both and be consistent. You could, for instance, have Kx, Lx, and Rx all being different respectively from Ky, Ly, and Ry. You must calculate both Kx*Lx/Rx and Ky*Ly/Ry and use the value which gives the lowest structural capacity.

Hope this is the answer to the question you were asking.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Anantha Narayan C.K.

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 11:22 AM

Subject: Weak axis moment frame K Value

Greetings,

I am peer reviewing a job which has moment frames framing into the column weak axis. I wanted to know if I could compute the effective length factor (K) based on the Iy. This would mean getting a lower K value and hence, a higher axial load capacity.

Does this make sense?

Thanks

Anantha

VTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVT

ANANTHA NARAYAN, E.I.

Structural Engineer

Bliss and Nyitray Inc.

Miami, FL - 33134

New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

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ANANTHA NARAYAN, E.I.

Structural Engineer

Bliss and Nyitray Inc.

Miami, FL - 33134

What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.

Re: Stone house

Gary,

This is new to me also so I'm winging it.

The two things I would be most concerned about are having a good
foundation and preventing moisture from passing through the walls. I'm
certain you can take care of the foundation part. Would your client
consider a stone veneer house? If so this would turn it back into a
conventional house.

Sorry I can't provide any better information than this. Perhaps
some architect that specializes in historic restorations may have some
ideas. Another possibility is National Research Council. They have done
quite a lot of work on building envelopes

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc." <ghodgson@bellnet.ca>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: Stone house

> Fellow listers,
> I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone house
> for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he should build a
> house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if anyone out there
> has any words of wisdom or warning.
> Gary
>
>
>>
>>
>> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> *
>> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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>> * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> *
>> *

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>> *
>> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org
>> <mailto:seaint-ad@seaint.org>. Remember, any email you
>> * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> * site at: http://www.seaint.org <http://www.seaint.org>
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>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
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> *
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Re: Weak axis moment frame K Value

Anantha,

You have to check both and be consistent. You could, for instance, have Kx, Lx, and Rx all being different respectively from Ky, Ly, and Ry. You must calculate both Kx*Lx/Rx and Ky*Ly/Ry and use the value which gives the lowest structural capacity.

Hope this is the answer to the question you were asking.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Anantha Narayan C.K.

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 11:22 AM

Subject: Weak axis moment frame K Value

Greetings,

I am peer reviewing a job which has moment frames framing into the column weak axis. I wanted to know if I could compute the effective length factor (K) based on the Iy. This would mean getting a lower K value and hence, a higher axial load capacity.

Does this make sense?

Thanks

Anantha

VTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVT

ANANTHA NARAYAN, E.I.

Structural Engineer

Bliss and Nyitray Inc.

Miami, FL - 33134

New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

RE: Bar Joist

That is how we design our roof and floor decks and joists. Another reason for staying with the same size joist with a closer spacing is to eliminate the chance the larger joist is put in the wrong place. Depending on shipping of joists and the erector, there is no guarantee that they will be placed in the right place.

Gary W. Loomis, P.E., Senior Structural Engineering

Master Engineers and Designers, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint1@truesdellengineering.com]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:00 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Bar Joist

I haven't seen any replies, so I'll put in my $0.02:

I don't (bother to) account for load sharing. Usually I'll just decrease the spacing to account for the added load at the perimeter, since I think it's cheaper to buy an extra 4-6 joists of a series that you're already building 100 of instead of adding 2 or 3 joists of a unique type. You could do a deflection/stiffness analysis to get a more accurate picture, but you have to be cognizant of the price of engineering analysis vs the return in the field (and whether or not you're getting paid to do the added scope).

For non-composite concrete floors, I count the concrete like it's sand - no stiffness, just dead weight. If it won't actually span the distance , it's the only prudent thing to do. The advantage to this "method" is that there actually is some residual load sharing that will occur when some numbnut does something stupid to the structure. Instead of collapsing, the floor system just sags locally or you get cracks in hard surfaces.

Jordan

Wesley Werner wrote:

When you distribute roof loads to your bar joists, do you consider the continuity of the metal decking, or do you figure the decking is pinned between joists? Continuity makes a big difference particularly for the second joist from an edge where there is snow drift. In addition, what about floor loads when you have deck with concrete?

Wesley C. Werner

Re: Bar Joist

Jordan

Wesley Werner wrote:

Message

When you distribute roof loads to your bar joists, do you consider the continuity of the metal decking, or do you figure the decking is pinned between joists? Continuity makes a big difference particularly for the second joist from an edge where there is snow drift. In addition, what about floor loads when you have deck with concrete?

Wesley C. Werner

Weak axis moment frame K Value

Greetings,

I am peer reviewing a job which has moment frames framing into the column weak axis. I wanted to know if I could compute the effective length factor (K) based on the Iy. This would mean getting a lower K value and hence, a higher axial load capacity.

Does this make sense?

Thanks

Anantha

VTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVT

ANANTHA NARAYAN, E.I.

Structural Engineer

Bliss and Nyitray Inc.

Miami, FL - 33134

New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

Bar Joist

Wesley C. Werner

Re: Stone house

My only comments are that the IBC only recognizes (rubble) stone walls
of a minimum 16" thickness, but there are empirical values for stress.
Unfortunately, empirical design cannot be used for SDC D/E/F, and can't
be used for seismic force resisting systems in SDC B/C. That's pretty
restrictive for an "all" stone house.

Jordan

Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. wrote:
> Fellow listers,
> I was asked yesterday by a regular client if I could design a stone
> house for him-field stone. Give him credit, he also asked if he
> should build a house out of stone. This is new to me and I wonder if
> anyone out there has any words of wisdom or warning.
> Gary
>
>
>

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********