Saturday, June 2, 2007

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

A REAL friend supplies the truck & shovels as well............. :)

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Christopher Wright < chrisw@skypoint.com> wrote:

On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:45 AM, DOLLY TRIVIZ wrote:

> "A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your
> heart."
I always thought that a friend is someone who helps you move, and a
real friend is someone who helps you move bodies.

Sorry--couldn't resist. Won't happen again.

Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com   | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/



******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Will-

Answered my questions about refs

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JCCOF2000006000002000112000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?0103397

http://books.google.com/books?id=egDzRi8e6agC&pg=PA893&lpg=PA893&dq=carbon+frp+steel+galvanic+corrosion&source=web&ots=ldo4BaUayR&sig=TWg3COrGRSx-2HMPOxVnNVnJ85U#PPA896,M1


cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Additonally one needs an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion (one of the best is of course sea water but any water will do)

Except for plumbing systems or exterior applications, it seems ot me that the conditions for galvanic corrosion do not exist in a building system (like a floor joists)

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry to be so persistent but do you have soruce or reference for this concern?


cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Will Haynes < gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
Galvanic corrosion.


Will


On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob



On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********






Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Try Google, there is a good bit of discussion about it. Why would you ever put 2 materials that even have the potential to corrode in contact?

"In the case of carbon FRP, the likelihood of galvanic corrosion due to steel-carbon fiber contact is also a concern."

http://campus.umr.edu/rb2c/publications/journal/1999/Anchorage.pdf

Will

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Additonally one needs an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion (one of the best is of course sea water but any water will do)

Except for plumbing systems or exterior applications, it seems ot me that the conditions for galvanic corrosion do not exist in a building system (like a floor joists)

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry to be so persistent but do you have soruce or reference for this concern?


cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Will Haynes < gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
Galvanic corrosion.


Will


On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob



On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********






Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Additonally one needs an electrolyte for galvanic corrosion (one of the best is of course sea water but any water will do)

Except for plumbing systems or exterior applications, it seems ot me that the conditions for galvanic corrosion do not exist in a building system (like a floor joists)

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry to be so persistent but do you have soruce or reference for this concern?


cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Will Haynes < gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
Galvanic corrosion.


Will


On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob



On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********





Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Chris,

I hope it WILL happen again!!

Without you, Bill Polhemus. and Scott Maxwell things would be rather
dull.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Wright" <chrisw@skypoint.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??


>
> On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:45 AM, DOLLY TRIVIZ wrote:
>
>> "A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."
> I always thought that a friend is someone who helps you move, and a real
> friend is someone who helps you move bodies.
>
> Sorry--couldn't resist. Won't happen again.
>
> Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
> chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
> .......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
> 1864)
> http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association
> of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or
> UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to
> the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your
> permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org

> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Dolly,
 
        How about adding some "Bow String" joists?  You should be able to build these in place about every third TJW and connect them together with heavy bridging to create a load sharing system.
 
        Just a thought.
 
Regards,
 
H. Daryl Richardson
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Sorry to be so persistent but do you have soruce or reference for this concern?

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Will Haynes < gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
Galvanic corrosion.


Will


On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy < rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob



On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********




Re: Cripple wall stud length

Truitt-

As long as folks are asking questions but not answering the original question.....(I've got no answer but I do have another question.)

you stated in your reply

" some inspectors around here let people get by with sheathing both sides of the cripple wall when it is less than 14" – I don't agree with that but it seems to be somewhat common around here."

do you not like this detail because you think its overkill or ineffective?

Sheathing both sides would make that little cripple pretty strong.

cheers
Bob



On 6/1/07, Truitt Vance <Truitt@advanceeng.net> wrote:

Hello Ralph,

 

I don't think it has any code basis but some inspectors around here let people get by with sheathing both sides of the cripple wall when it is less than 14" – I don't agree with that but it seems to be somewhat common around here.

 

Its probably semantics, but I have always assumed that the 14" applied to the total ht of the cripple wall, not the studs as you implied, so the studs really are limited to 14" minus 4 ½" (thickness of single bottom plate and double top plate) or 9 ½" cripple studs, max.

 

When I used to frame, I found the most economical way to do it was use (2) 1 ¼" LSL, 1.3E – least expensive and easily ripped to any dimension less than 14" on the job site table saw, then you turn that into a "box beam" each piece flush to the outside of the wall or plate, so if its in a 2x6 wall you don't have to furr anything out.  I have never figured it out but this is probably not much more expensive than framing a pony wall, and I don't think it takes much longer, but the biggest drawback of this method is that it is hard to compensate for undulating concrete!  Its much easier to get a level top plate if you measure each cripple stud and cut it, but usually the concrete isn't that bad.

 

Sorry I don't know the history of the limitation except the obvious stud splitting concerns but this may be a economical, viable solution that doesn't violate the code.

 

Truitt Vance, P.E. – Central Coast of CA

 


From: Rhkratzse@aol.com [mailto:Rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:19 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Cripple wall stud length

 

Folks,

I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation [2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls.  [I'm not familiar with the IBC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.]  Studs are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used.  I understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g. 3") studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use larger, short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member.  Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc.  Yes, of course we could use manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of view may not be necessary.

Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain circumstances?

TIA,

Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
Richmond CA USA



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Galvanic corrosion.


Will

On 6/2/07, Robert Kazanjy <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob



On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********



Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

How about beefing up the bottom chord with more conventional material? 

Like a 2x6 or LVL adttached with a something like SIKA Injection Gel or SIKA 31   plus .113 diameter nails  to prevent a peeling failure.

SIKA makes all sorts of repair materials, many are pastes or gels that are easy to mix & apply.....they don't run or drip as well.
(I'm not a SIKA rep just a satisfied user & specifier)

I'm a fan of FRP use, esp for adding shear & confinement capacity to R/C columns / piers but the thermal softening of epoxies makes me nervous when temps can get up beyond 130F (esp in attic or roof situations)

Additionally will the shear capacity of existing TJW's support increasing the overall capacity of the system?

Too bad about the duct work but that's one of the benefits of the TJW's.......
How many areas have penetraions?  With effort could plywood skins be worked in around the ducted areas?  And doubled up (or supplemented with sheet metal)  where the penetrations occur?

cheers
Bob

On 6/2/07, Christopher Wright <chrisw@skypoint.com> wrote:

On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:45 AM, DOLLY TRIVIZ wrote:

> "A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your
> heart."
I always thought that a friend is someone who helps you move, and a
real friend is someone who helps you move bodies.

Sorry--couldn't resist. Won't happen again.

Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com   | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/



******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

Will-

>>>>If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.<<<<

Could you expalin further this prohibition?

cheers
Bob


On 6/2/07, Will Haynes <gtg740p@gmail.com> wrote:
What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.


On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********


Re: Cripple wall stud length

Good thought.  I've never heard anyone complain about them, and it's a pretty common situation.

Ralph

In a message dated 6/2/07 7:40:04 AM, lrhauer@hotmail.com writes:
Ralph,

I don't have any answer to your question, but I was thinking: What about the
studs between a double top plate and a header? They are generally less than
14" high, so it would seem to be this is contrary to the code requirement.

Larry Hauer S.E.


>From: Rhkratzse@aol.com
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Cripple wall stud length
>Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:18:56 EDT
>
>Folks,
>
>I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation
>[2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls.   [I'm not familiar with the
>IBC,
>but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.]  
>Studs
>are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used.   I
>understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g.
>3")
>studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use
>larger,
>short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member.
>Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc.   Yes, of course we could use
>manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of
>view may
>not be necessary.
>
>Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or
>whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain
>circumstances?
>
>TIA,
>
>Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
>Richmond CA USA



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

RE: Cripple wall stud length

Ralph,

I don't have any answer to your question, but I was thinking: What about the
studs between a double top plate and a header? They are generally less than
14" high, so it would seem to be this is contrary to the code requirement.

Larry Hauer S.E.


>From: Rhkratzse@aol.com
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Cripple wall stud length
>Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:18:56 EDT
>
>Folks,
>
>I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation
>[2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls. [I'm not familiar with the
>IBC,
>but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.]
>Studs
>are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used. I
>understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g.
>3")
>studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use
>larger,
>short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member.
>Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc. Yes, of course we could use
>manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of
>view may
>not be necessary.
>
>Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or
>whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain
>circumstances?
>
>TIA,
>
>Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
>Richmond CA USA
>
>
>**************************************
> See what's free at
>http://www.aol.com.

_________________________________________________________________
Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: NEWS ITEM: (And what're the seismic parameters for Mumbai?)

Bombay is one of the more active regions in India. Here is some info.
http://theory.tifr.res.in/bombay/physical/fault.html

It is not too far from Gujarat, where in 2001 there was a major earthquake (7.9 or so on the Richter).
 
VTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVTVT
 
ANANTHA NARAYAN, E.I.
Structural Engineer
Bliss and Nyitray Inc.
Miami, FL - 33134


----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Polhemus <bill@polhemus.cc>
To: seaint@seaint.org
Sent: Friday, 1 June, 2007 6:47:43 PM
Subject: NEWS ITEM: (And what're the seismic parameters for Mumbai?)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459208&in_page_id=1770
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459208&in_page_id=1770>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********



Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

What FRP are you using? If you are using carbon FRP, I know it cannot be in contact with any of the steel.

Will H.

On 6/2/07, DOLLY TRIVIZ < dktriviz@msn.com> wrote:

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* *** * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to: * * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp * * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at: http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:45 AM, DOLLY TRIVIZ wrote:

> "A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your
> heart."
I always thought that a friend is someone who helps you move, and a
real friend is someone who helps you move bodies.

Sorry--couldn't resist. Won't happen again.

Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Friday, June 1, 2007

strengthening of floor joists with FRP's??

I have a project where we'd like to strengthen the existing open web floor joists (TJW) due to change of occupancy use.  Loads have increased from 50 psf live +20 psf partition to 100 psf live with no partition loading.

Has anyone ever strengthened these types of joists using FRP's adhered to the bottom chord only?? Is this even a possiblity, considering the different materials (i.e. wood chords, steel web members, steel pins) used in the joists? Presence of piping/ducting running through the web spaces precludes the use of sheathing the sides of the joists with plywood, which was my first thought.  Any other suggestions??  Thanks


"A friend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart."

"Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness."
"To laugh often and love much... to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self... this is to have succeeded. "

NEWS ITEM: (And what're the seismic parameters for Mumbai?)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459208&in_page_id=1770

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459208&in_page_id=1770>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: Night Shift duty for my computer

G Vishwanath wrote:
> List,
>
> My computer and internet connection are idle all night.
The answer is "Linux." Set up a Linux server, write a few simple scripts
and all this will be done for you.

The hardware's inexpensive and the software is all free of cost.

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

RE: fillet welding

The corresponding commentary on page 16.1 – 331 confirms that it is based on thinner (and why).

 

Ed Smith

Kansas City, MO

 


From: Ganesh Thia [mailto:gastrtr@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:36 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: fillet welding

 

This is NOT a typo as per my knowledge....

 

Ganesh

 

On 5/31/07, raincat1@aol.com <raincat1@aol.com> wrote:

AISC 13th Table J2.4 is based on the THINNER material. Is this a typo? Previous editions were based on the THICKER material.
Thanks!

Rainier C. Catubig
San Diego, CA


AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com .
 

 

RE: steel - vibration analysis

David,

 

I don’t have any experience with the AISC software or FloorVibe, and what vibration calcs I ran were only with RAM SBeam or by hand, and it’s been a while for either.  But my recollection with RAM SBeam is that the program assumed no damping of any sort and that I had to put some quantity in to get a reasonable size member at the “barely perceptible” vibration level (which is what that particular project called for).  I forget exactly what that quantity was now—I think it might have been 30% of live load.  Anyway, if you haven’t already, root around in RAM to find if you need to tweak the assumed or calculated damping somewhere.

 

Gary

 

Gary J. Ehrlich, PE

Program Manager, Structural Codes & Standards

National Association of Home Builders (NAHB)

1201 15th Street, NW, Washington, DC 20005

ph: 202-266-8545  or 800-368-5242 x8545

fax: 202-266-8369

gehrlich@nahb.com


From: David Topete [mailto:dtopete@gfdseng.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:44 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: steel - vibration analysis

 

Checking vibration on steel framing for a mezzanine, I got 2 similar answers by following example 4.4 of AISC Design Guide 11 (Designing for Floor Vibrations) and the Floor Framing software from the www.AISC.org/steeltools downloadable software.  While those answers were similar, the analysis provided by FloorVibe via Ram Structural System indicated members being increased about 60% (conservatively).  Has anyone else encountered such a discrepancy?

 

David A. Topete, SE

Structural Engineer

 

GFDS Engineers

543 Howard St., First Floor

San Francisco, CA 94105

v : (415) 512-1301 x21

f : (415) 512-1302

dtopete@gfdseng.com

www.gfdseng.com

 

Re: Cripple wall stud length

Thanks, Truit; that sounds like a reasonable solution.  I'm hoping for a little history lesson here, although it may be lost in the "mists of time."

Ralph

In a message dated 6/1/07 9:52:05 AM, Truitt@adVanceEng.net writes:
Hello Ralph,

I don't think it has any code basis but some inspectors around here let people get by with sheathing both sides of the cripple wall when it is less than 14" I don't agree with that but it seems to be somewhat common around here.

Its probably semantics, but I have always assumed that the 14" applied to the total ht of the cripple wall, not the studs as you implied, so the studs really are limited to 14" minus 4" (thickness of single bottom plate and double top plate) or 9" cripple studs, max.

When I used to frame, I found the most economical way to do it was use (2) 1" LSL, 1.3E least expensive and easily ripped to any dimension less than 14" on the job site table saw, then you turn that into a "box beam" each piece flush to the outside of the wall or plate, so if its in a 2x6 wall you don't have to furr anything out. I have never figured it out but this is probably not much more expensive than framing a pony wall, and I don't think it takes much longer, but the biggest drawback of this method is that it is hard to compensate for undulating concrete! Its much easier to get a level top plate if you measure each cripple stud and cut it, but usually the concrete isn't that bad.

Sorry I don't know the history of the limitation except the obvious stud splitting concerns but this may be a economical, viable solution that doesn't violate the code.

Truitt Vance, P.E. Central Coast of CA




From: Rhkratzse@aol.com [mailto:Rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:19 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Cripple wall stud length


Folks,

I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation [2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls. [I'm not familiar with the IBC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.] Studs are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used. I understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g. 3") studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use larger, short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member. Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc. Yes, of course we could use manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of view may not be necessary.

Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain circumstances?

TIA,

Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
Richmond CA USA



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

RE: Cripple wall stud length

Hello Ralph,

 

I don’t think it has any code basis but some inspectors around here let people get by with sheathing both sides of the cripple wall when it is less than 14” – I don’t agree with that but it seems to be somewhat common around here.

 

Its probably semantics, but I have always assumed that the 14” applied to the total ht of the cripple wall, not the studs as you implied, so the studs really are limited to 14” minus 4 ½” (thickness of single bottom plate and double top plate) or 9 ½” cripple studs, max.

 

When I used to frame, I found the most economical way to do it was use (2) 1 ¼” LSL, 1.3E – least expensive and easily ripped to any dimension less than 14” on the job site table saw, then you turn that into a “box beam” each piece flush to the outside of the wall or plate, so if its in a 2x6 wall you don’t have to furr anything out.  I have never figured it out but this is probably not much more expensive than framing a pony wall, and I don’t think it takes much longer, but the biggest drawback of this method is that it is hard to compensate for undulating concrete!  Its much easier to get a level top plate if you measure each cripple stud and cut it, but usually the concrete isn’t that bad.

 

Sorry I don’t know the history of the limitation except the obvious stud splitting concerns but this may be a economical, viable solution that doesn’t violate the code.

 

Truitt Vance, P.E. – Central Coast of CA

 


From: Rhkratzse@aol.com [mailto:Rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:19 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Cripple wall stud length

 

Folks,

I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation [2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls.  [I'm not familiar with the IBC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.]  Studs are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used.  I understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g. 3") studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use larger, short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member.  Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc.  Yes, of course we could use manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of view may not be necessary.

Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain circumstances?

TIA,

Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
Richmond CA USA



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Cripple wall stud length

Folks,

I've been curious for a long time about the reason for the UBC limitation [2320.11.5] on stud length in cripple walls.  [I'm not familiar with the IBC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a similar limitation.]  Studs are required to be 14" minimum length, or solid blocking must be used.  I understand that there may be concerns about splitting of very short (e.g. 3") studs, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be more desirable to use larger, short studs -- say 4x4 x 12" tall -- rather than a solid horizontal member.  Less shrinkage, less wood, less cost, etc.  Yes, of course we could use manufactured wood, but that's expensive and from an engineering point of view may not be necessary.

Does anyone know the reason for this 14" limitation, its history, and/or whether it is ever considered acceptable to violate it in certain circumstances?

TIA,

Ralph Hueston Kratz, S.E.
Richmond CA USA



**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Re: steel - vibration analysis

Allen Adams at RAM can help you if you are getting different answers between the Design Guide 11 example and Floorvibe via RAM. You should get the same.


Will Haynes





On 5/31/07, Josh Plummer <josh.plummer@cox.net> wrote:
David -
 
I've used the FloorVibe software, but only the share ware version that AISC had on their website for awhile.  Not sure if they have a better / commercial version or not. Anyway, the problem that I see with this software is that everything has to be nice and orthogonal.  I didn't see a way to enter in the types of skewed project grids that I really see on design projects.  My impression was that it was even more limited than that, but it's been awhile so I can't quite remember what seemed so limiting about it. 
 
I don't have any experience with RAM, but keep in mind that the values handed to FloorVibe from RAM would have to be simplified and approximated to fit into the very rigid constraints of what FloorVibe is allowed to do.  The assumptions and simplifications that RAM makes may not be all that good.  If the guys at RAM really new how to to floor vibrations, then I'd think that they would just do the calculation themselves?  This may not be simple for the average engineer who does this calculations once every few years.  However, it's shouldn't be all that difficult for a development team whose job it is to get it right once when they're programming it. 
 
Disclaimer: I work for a structural engeineering software company (RISA Technologies) that competes against RAM in the Floor design market and which also brags about our ability to do DG-11 floor vibration calculations.  I'm ridiculously busy these days, but if you were to e-mail me a good description of your floor system or some drawings and such, then I can try to get one of our engineers to enter this into our Floor program to demonstrate our ability to do the DG-11 calculations accurately.
 
Sincerely,
 
 
Josh Plummer, SE
RISA Technologies


From: David Topete [mailto:dtopete@gfdseng.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:44 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: steel - vibration analysis

Checking vibration on steel framing for a mezzanine, I got 2 similar answers by following example 4.4 of AISC Design Guide 11 (Designing for Floor Vibrations) and the Floor Framing software from the www.AISC.org/steeltools downloadable software.  While those answers were similar, the analysis provided by FloorVibe via Ram Structural System indicated members being increased about 60% (conservatively).  Has anyone else encountered such a discrepancy?

 

David A. Topete, SE

Structural Engineer

 

GFDS Engineers

543 Howard St., First Floor

San Francisco, CA 94105

v : (415) 512-1301 x21

f : (415) 512-1302

dtopete@gfdseng.com

www.gfdseng.com

 


Re: Night Shift duty for my computer - and beyond...

Will the stone be around long after the steel has corroded?

G Vishwanath wrote:
>
> Detailers are today indispensable. You can engrave that in stone.
>
> Regards
> Vish
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Food fight?
> <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask&sid=396545367>
> Enjoy some healthy debate
> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
> <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask&sid=396545367>

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: Night Shift duty for my computer - and beyond...

Joel and Meg,
Thank you very much for you response.
I will try out this lead.
 
 
As regards your views on X steel models being sold, use of Rebis software, etc,  seeing the condition of the architectural  and structural dwgs these days, I very much doubt if this method will ever be successful for the vast majority of projects in the construction market.
 
It may work for structures with standard geometry made by firms who specialize in them and where archtiects, GCs, Mechanical Contractors, Suppliers of Roof top units etc are not involved. An example that comes readily to my mind is transmission line tower structures.

I am sure that in these projects, a detailer can be eliminated if the engineer models it and also generates the detail dwgs.
 
For the rest of the common commercial structures, that account for the bulk of the investments in construction, as long as the present system continues, as long as each party involved, like the Architect, structural engineer, Civil contractor, Deck supplier, joist supplier, Rtu supplier limits himself to only his scope, and is unwilling to involve more fully, and as long no  project manager respresenting the ultimate paying  client and answerable directly to him along is involved,   a detailer is essential. He is today doing much more than detailing.
 
I have already stopped feeling frustrated and angry at the state of affairs. I have instead learned to be proud of my scope and know for certain that if I don't cooperate, the project cannot be successfully completed. The only issue that I have to sort out is how to get more for the extra services I am doing. Convincing fabricators that we are shouldering a major part of their burden is not as difficult as persuading them to pay a little extra for it.
 
A recent mail from Paul in the steel detailers list bears out what I am saying.
One in six out of every project I now do is like the project that Paul described.
My most unforgettable nightmare is a project that yielded only 19.1 tons of steel, involved over 40 dwgs  and dragged on for 7 months and was detailed and re detailed over and over agian. Today what is in place bears no resemblance to the original architect's and structural dwgs and I can morally stake a claim to being the anonymous unknown and unsung architect cum designer cum detailer cum project manager for that job sitting on the other side of the globe.
My reward?
This fabricator is hooked permanently. He wont go to anyone else as long as I am available. He whines about occasional errors in our dwgs but has not back charged us even a single dollar so far.
 
Detailers are today indispensable. You can engrave that in stone.
 
Regards
Vish
 


Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

Re: Large Bay 'X' Bracing

Dear Rich: I got the following tips from Harold using upset rods and
felt to pass it on to you and SEAINT. He recommends the use of upset
rods , which i totally agree with him. For those who are not familiar
with upset rods, these are rods that the un-threaded part of the rod has
an area smaller than the area under the threads making yielding of the
gross area of the rod to govern over the fracture of net section. I
like to thank Harold for the reminder since quite honestly I did not
know that upset rods are still used so frequently.

In my experience I have observed that most important bridges until
1950's have used upset rods as anchor bolts, but, some how, in recent
years i have not seen many bridges using upset rods. However, after Loma
Prieta '89 and Northridge '94, investigating damage to steel bridges as
well as buildings, I observed more than a few cases where the regular
anchor bolts had fractured through the under-thread' reduced area in a
very brittle manner as expected.

On the other hand at least in one case that I was involved with as
consultant , the use of upset rods had saved a 120 feet tall "cracker"
tower in a refinery after a magnitude M>7 earthquake. The cracker which
is primarily a large steel pipe which apparently from little I know,
houses inside it various pipes and other machinery and processing
equipment which have high pressure and high temperature oil at various
stages of refining. You can imagine what would have happened if this
cracker was toppled.

In this case the large steel pipe structure of the cracker was anchored
to the foundation, if I remember it right now, by 32 one inch diameter
upset rods with a length of about 12-18 inches. What has happened during
the earthquake was that the cracker as a cantilever had started rocking
and due to elongation of the reduced part of the shank due to yielding,
the tower has experienced a rocking motion which generally is very long
period and as long as center of gravity stays within the footprint, the
tower would not topple. The consulting firm which was doing the
investigation conducted dynamic analysis and sure enough by considering
the rocking motion, the structure was stable where as assuming a rigid
base would attract enough inertia forces to brake the rods if they were
not upset rods. The solution that was recommended to client was not to
change anything other than to take out the elongated upset rods and
replace them with the new ones for future rock and roll of the cracker!

I have included this detail in my upcoming Steel TIPS hoping to post on

www.steeltips.org in June called: " Seismic Behavior and Design of Base
Plates in Steel Braced Frames", by A. Astaneh-Asl, June 2007. Well, I
guess I have done it again and have pitched in my own coming attraction! .
Best wishes as always.
Hassan
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor, UC-Berkeley
Contact Info at www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh
=================

Harold Sprague wrote:
> You may also want to consider pretensioned upset threaded rods. That
> is how water towers are constructed even in high seismic areas, and
> they perform very well.
>
> Regards,
> Harold Sprague
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl <astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu>
>> Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>> To: seaint@seaint.org
>> CC: hassan@astaneh.net
>> Subject: Large Bay 'X' Bracing
>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 05:41:41 -0700
>>
>> Dear Rich:
>> I have put your question as a Problem below and offered my solution
>> to t. next semester I might give it as a HW or even a midterm!
>>
>> Problem: Design an X-bracing in an industrial building to resist
>> wind load. The height and width of the braced bay are 31' and 42'
>> respectively. The braces are to be designed as tension only members.
>> The service load in the diagonal is 21 kips. Use LRFD or ASD
>> according to AISC 2005 Specification (ANSI/AISC 360-05) and
>> ASCE-7-2005.
>>
>> Solution: Two options will be considered; Round HSS and threaded
>> rods with turnbuckle.
>> LRFD methods will be used. (ASD will result in identical solution
>> for tension members)
>>
>> Option A- Round HSS Shape:
>> Tu=Factored Load= 1.6x21 =34 kips
>> According to AISC Manual 13th Ed, Page 2-39, the preferred round HSS
>> material is A500-GrB(42/58 ksi). So, Fy=42 ksi and Fu=58 ksi.
>> Check yielding of gross area:
>> Ag=Tu/[(Fee-y)(Fy)= 34/(0.9x42)= 0.9 in2
>> Check fracture of net area:
>> An= Tu/(Fee-u)(Fu)(U)=34/(0.75x58x0.90)= 0.89 in2
>> Notice that a U factor of 0.90 is used for the net section at the
>> ends of the member. More precise U can be established by using
>> U=1-x/L and knowing L, the length of welds on the round HSS at its ends.
>>
>> If only strength is considered in design, a Round HSS2.375x0.218 with
>> Ag= 1.2 in2 will be sufficient to carry the service load of 21 kips.
>> With this section, probably a 3/8" gusset plate would be sufficient.
>> In that case the net are left at the ends of the member will be:
>> An=1.39 in2-2x(3/8)(0.218)=1.22 > 0.89 in2 O.K.
>> Notice that a lighter section such as Round HSS 2.375x0.154 will also
>> work resulting in An=0.893 > 0.89. But, I prefer to have some
>> thickness in the pipe near 1/4' so that welding at the ends can be
>> done properly. So, I choose Round HSS 2.375x0.218 for the braces for
>> strength considerations.
>> Now I like to check the "preferred" slenderness ratio for tension
>> members. Notice that this is preferred and not "required' by the AISC
>> Spec. It is preferred that KL/r < or = 300.
>>
>> The value of K for members in X-brace can be taken as 0.75 (see S.C.
>> Goel et al paper in the Engineering Journal of the AISC at AISC.org
>> on this subject. Search under Goel). Gusset plates provide some
>> fixity for in plane direction and the compression brace connected to
>> the middle point provides fixity in out of plane direction. That is
>> why K is 0.75. L for the member is 52 feet.
>> KL/r < 300 results in:
>> r> 0.75x52x12/300 = 1.56
>>
>> If I want to satisfy this "preferred " criteria, the section to be
>> used will be Round HSS 4.5x0.237 (again preferring a section with a
>> wall thickness not too much smaller than the 1/4" for practicality of
>> fabrication and welding. Since this criteria is a "preferred' one
>> the choice between this heavier section and what we need to satisfy
>> strength is ours. I choose the heavier section to satisfy the KL/r <
>> 300 and possibly avoid complaints from the fabricators and erectors
>> on flimsiness of the braces!
>>
>> Option B- Threaded rods and turnbuckles:
>> Tu=Factored Load= 1.6x21 =34 kips
>> Let us use A36 threaded rods, with Fy=36 ksi and Fu=58 ksi.
>> Check tensile strength (see AISC Spec 2005 Table J3.2)
>> A=Tu/[(0.75)(Fu)]= 34/(0.75x58)= 0.89 in2
>> A 1-1/8" diameter A36 rod will be sufficient to carry the load. The
>> rods would need turnbuckles and post-tensioning to about say 10% of
>> the capacity to remove the sag which in that case there is no need to
>> check the KL/r< 300 preferred criteria since it is not meant for post
>> tensioned rods.Apparently when one goes back to bridge books, where
>> this criteria was first mentioned, one finds out that this was meant
>> only for rolled shapes and cold formed sections and for fabrication
>> and erection purposes. Also, bridge engineers were concerned with the
>> vibrations of very slender members in bridges under the impact of
>> trucks passing over. I observed this phenomenon a few years back in
>> Binicia-Martinez bridge near San Francisco when walking under the
>> deck on the catwalk, you could clearly see the vibration of single
>> angle cross braces. The vibration itself was not a major concern
>> since no one can see those vibrating braces, but, I got concerned
>> about fatigue issues since over the years such vibrations can cause
>> fatigue fracture. i did some back of envelop dynamic analysis and it
>> turned out that the vibration is because of dynamic resonance and the
>> fact that these braces are long and have relatively small stiffness
>> that their period of first mode is close to 1.0 Hz, the driving force
>> frequency. Then you look at KL/r < 300 and you really get fascinated
>> with the wisdom and knowledge of those bridge engineers of 19 and
>> early 20th century who has put all of this dynamics and fabrication
>> and erection concerns into very simple equation of KL/r < 300 and
>> avoided all the pitfalls of using very slender members. Notice that
>> KL/r has all the dynamic properties of geometry (L and A) and
>> stiffness (I) in it!
>> By the way, this was not the first time I was amazed how good those
>> old time engineers were. the first time was during my dissertation
>> work, I stumbled over the Whitmore's method for gusset plates which
>> was used in late 1800's by bridge engineers , almost hundred years
>> ahead of Whitmore's tests which showed this method works!
>>
>> Well, sorry for taking your time too long.With your permission I plan
>> to double check it and include in my upcoming textbook: "Behavior and
>> Design of Steel and Composite Structures" by Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl,
>> Volume One on Steel Structures to be released January 1, 2008). I
>> know you will not trust my calculations and if you use above numbers
>> in your actual design, you will double check them!
>>
>> Best wishes and thank you for bringing up an interesting question.
>> "Hassan"
>> Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E.,
>> (http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh)
>> =============================
>>
>> From: "Rich Lewis" <seaint04@lewisengineering.com>
>> To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>> Subject: Large Bay 'X' Bracing
>>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C7A21B.4FED7FD0
>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>> I have a warehouse condition of a 'X' braced bay that is 31 feet high
>> and 42
>> feet wide. The diagonal length is over 51 feet. I'm wondering if I
>> should
>> try to use the bracing as one large bay, or add a wind column in the
>> middle
>> and have two smaller bays. The bracing is tension only for wind
>> loads. The
>> load in the diagonal is about 21 kips. What makes me most uneasy is the
>> slenderness ratio of the brace. If I try to limit the L/r ratio of
>> the out
>> of plane axis to 300 then I get extremely large angles. If I ad a
>> column I
>> add almost 50% more bracing length, plus column and footing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your insight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> a
>>
>> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> * * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers *
>> Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To * subscribe
>> (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> *
>> *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
>> *
>> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you *
>> send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted * without
>> your permission. Make sure you visit our web * site at:
>> http://www.seaint.org ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ******
>> ****** ********
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on
> MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org

******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********