Structural Engineering: 2007-09-02

Saturday, September 8, 2007

RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Thanks for everyone's input on this subject. I've decided to go with
Simpson's CS16 strap and SDS screws. I am using the NDS values for 0.19"
wood screw in 16 ga. metal. I know that you need at least 14 ga. for 0.25"
screw values, but I don't see why this isn't valid, (using 0.19" vaules for
a 0.25" screw). I'll use a washer behind the SDS head. This is a California
OSHPD job, so I am sure the clacs will be scrutinized very carefully.

Thanks again

>From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:17:19 -0700
>
>I agree, SDS screws would be the best but you will need to use a strap that
>is at least 14 ga minimum. I do not believe simpson has any values for
>anything less than 14 ga.
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Christopher Banbury [mailto:cbanbury@arkengineering.net]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:23 PM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>I second the earlier suggestion to use Simpson SDS screws. If you don't
>need anything over a 1/4" diameter then I believe you will find that these
>will give you higher allowable shear loads than you can calc from the NDS
>for any lag screw. In addition they are self drilling and have excellent
>tabulated pullout resistance.
>
>Christopher Banbury, PE
>President
>
>Ark Engineering, Inc.
>PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603
>22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601
>Phone: (352) 754-2424
>Fax: (352) 754-2412
>www.arkengineering.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marlou Rodriguez [mailto:mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:16 PM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>If you are going to attach your strap, use wood screws. For a 16 ga strap
>you can use up to a #10 wood screw. You can find single shear capacities
>from 2005 NDS table 11m.
>
>Good luck
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:30 PM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>Marlou,
>
>Thanks for that info. re. being able to wrap a 16 ga. strap around the tank
>perimeter- that is what I will use.
>
>Larry Hauer
>
>
> >From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:12:34 -0700
> >
> >I have used 16 ga straps to wrap around tanks in the past. The key is to
> >make sure that the effective section at your connections can resist your
> >tensile load. Use wider straps if necessary. Depending on your load I
> >would not use anything less than 18 ga.
> >
> >Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
> >MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
> >2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
> >San Jose, CA 95131
> >Tel: (408) 432-4866
> >Cel: (408) 761-5013
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> >Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:09 AM
> >To: seaint@seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >
> >I'd love to use a thicker strap, but the straps have to be flexible to
>wrap
> >around small diamter tanks. Did you know that those seismic straps around
> >hot water heaters are only 26 gage, (0.018" thick)!!
> >
> >Larry Hauer
> >
> >
> > >From: "Robert Kazanjy" <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> > >To: seaint@seaint.org
> > >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:14 -0700
> > >
> > >14 gage is ~.075" thick, a much more reasonable thickness
> > >
> > >cheers
> > >Bob
> > >
> > >On 9/6/07, Josh Comfort <jcomfort@ggbse.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Table 11K in the 2005 NDS has single shear values for 3/8" diam. lag
> > > > screws
> > > > w/ 14 ga. side member thickness: G=0.5, Z(par)=200#, Z(perp)=130#.
> > >Those
> > > > values are for a penetration (p) of 8D into the wood. For 4D< p<
>8D,
> > >you
> > > > multiply the values by p/8D.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:32 PM
> > > > To: seaint@seaint.org
> > > > Subject: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm working on the anchorage of equipment to existing wood stud
>walls
> > >and
> > > > need to know what the minimum thickness of sheet metal strapping is
> >for
> > > > both
> > > > a 3/8" diam. and 1/2" diam. lag bolt acting in shear and what those
> > >shear
> > > > values are. I understand the values ares in some light gauge metal
> > > > handbook
> > > > which I do not have. I would like the thickness to be the minimum
> > > > possible,
> > > > (24 ga.?), and still get an allowable shear value of about 400#.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > >
> > > > Larry Hauer S.E.
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft(r) Office
> > >Live!
> > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > > *
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>_________________________________________________________________
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Friday, September 7, 2007

RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

I agree, SDS screws would be the best but you will need to use a strap that is at least 14 ga minimum. I do not believe simpson has any values for anything less than 14 ga.

Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
San Jose, CA 95131
Tel: (408) 432-4866
Cel: (408) 761-5013

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Banbury [mailto:cbanbury@arkengineering.net]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:23 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

I second the earlier suggestion to use Simpson SDS screws. If you don't need anything over a 1/4" diameter then I believe you will find that these will give you higher allowable shear loads than you can calc from the NDS for any lag screw. In addition they are self drilling and have excellent tabulated pullout resistance.

Christopher Banbury, PE
President

Ark Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603
22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601
Phone: (352) 754-2424
Fax: (352) 754-2412
www.arkengineering.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Marlou Rodriguez [mailto:mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:16 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

If you are going to attach your strap, use wood screws. For a 16 ga strap you can use up to a #10 wood screw. You can find single shear capacities from 2005 NDS table 11m.

Good luck

Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
San Jose, CA 95131
Tel: (408) 432-4866
Cel: (408) 761-5013

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:30 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Marlou,

Thanks for that info. re. being able to wrap a 16 ga. strap around the tank
perimeter- that is what I will use.

Larry Hauer

>From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:12:34 -0700
>
>I have used 16 ga straps to wrap around tanks in the past. The key is to
>make sure that the effective section at your connections can resist your
>tensile load. Use wider straps if necessary. Depending on your load I
>would not use anything less than 18 ga.
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:09 AM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>I'd love to use a thicker strap, but the straps have to be flexible to wrap
>around small diamter tanks. Did you know that those seismic straps around
>hot water heaters are only 26 gage, (0.018" thick)!!
>
>Larry Hauer
>
>
> >From: "Robert Kazanjy" <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >To: seaint@seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:14 -0700
> >
> >14 gage is ~.075" thick, a much more reasonable thickness
> >
> >cheers
> >Bob
> >
> >On 9/6/07, Josh Comfort <jcomfort@ggbse.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Table 11K in the 2005 NDS has single shear values for 3/8" diam. lag
> > > screws
> > > w/ 14 ga. side member thickness: G=0.5, Z(par)=200#, Z(perp)=130#.
> >Those
> > > values are for a penetration (p) of 8D into the wood. For 4D< p< 8D,
> >you
> > > multiply the values by p/8D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:32 PM
> > > To: seaint@seaint.org
> > > Subject: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm working on the anchorage of equipment to existing wood stud walls
> >and
> > > need to know what the minimum thickness of sheet metal strapping is
>for
> > > both
> > > a 3/8" diam. and 1/2" diam. lag bolt acting in shear and what those
> >shear
> > > values are. I understand the values ares in some light gauge metal
> > > handbook
> > > which I do not have. I would like the thickness to be the minimum
> > > possible,
> > > (24 ga.?), and still get an allowable shear value of about 400#.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Larry Hauer S.E.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft(r) Office
> >Live!
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > > *
> > > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > > *
> > > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> > >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe. Claim your
>treat today!
>http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2
>
>
>******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>*
>* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>*
>*

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft® Office Live!

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******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Christopher Banbury, PE
President

Ark Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 10129, Brooksville, FL 34603
22 North Broad ST, Brooksville, FL 34601
Phone: (352) 754-2424
Fax: (352) 754-2412
www.arkengineering.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Marlou Rodriguez [mailto:mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:16 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

If you are going to attach your strap, use wood screws. For a 16 ga strap you can use up to a #10 wood screw. You can find single shear capacities from 2005 NDS table 11m.

Good luck

Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
San Jose, CA 95131
Tel: (408) 432-4866
Cel: (408) 761-5013

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:30 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Marlou,

Thanks for that info. re. being able to wrap a 16 ga. strap around the tank
perimeter- that is what I will use.

Larry Hauer

>From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:12:34 -0700
>
>I have used 16 ga straps to wrap around tanks in the past. The key is to
>make sure that the effective section at your connections can resist your
>tensile load. Use wider straps if necessary. Depending on your load I
>would not use anything less than 18 ga.
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:09 AM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>I'd love to use a thicker strap, but the straps have to be flexible to wrap
>around small diamter tanks. Did you know that those seismic straps around
>hot water heaters are only 26 gage, (0.018" thick)!!
>
>Larry Hauer
>
>
> >From: "Robert Kazanjy" <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >To: seaint@seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:14 -0700
> >
> >14 gage is ~.075" thick, a much more reasonable thickness
> >
> >cheers
> >Bob
> >
> >On 9/6/07, Josh Comfort <jcomfort@ggbse.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Table 11K in the 2005 NDS has single shear values for 3/8" diam. lag
> > > screws
> > > w/ 14 ga. side member thickness: G=0.5, Z(par)=200#, Z(perp)=130#.
> >Those
> > > values are for a penetration (p) of 8D into the wood. For 4D< p< 8D,
> >you
> > > multiply the values by p/8D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:32 PM
> > > To: seaint@seaint.org
> > > Subject: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm working on the anchorage of equipment to existing wood stud walls
> >and
> > > need to know what the minimum thickness of sheet metal strapping is
>for
> > > both
> > > a 3/8" diam. and 1/2" diam. lag bolt acting in shear and what those
> >shear
> > > values are. I understand the values ares in some light gauge metal
> > > handbook
> > > which I do not have. I would like the thickness to be the minimum
> > > possible,
> > > (24 ga.?), and still get an allowable shear value of about 400#.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Larry Hauer S.E.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft(r) Office
> >Live!
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > > *
> > > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> > >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe. Claim your
>treat today!
>http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2
>
>
>******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>*
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RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

If you are going to attach your strap, use wood screws. For a 16 ga strap you can use up to a #10 wood screw. You can find single shear capacities from 2005 NDS table 11m.

Good luck

Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
San Jose, CA 95131
Tel: (408) 432-4866
Cel: (408) 761-5013

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:30 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Marlou,

Thanks for that info. re. being able to wrap a 16 ga. strap around the tank
perimeter- that is what I will use.

Larry Hauer

>From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:12:34 -0700
>
>I have used 16 ga straps to wrap around tanks in the past. The key is to
>make sure that the effective section at your connections can resist your
>tensile load. Use wider straps if necessary. Depending on your load I
>would not use anything less than 18 ga.
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:09 AM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>I'd love to use a thicker strap, but the straps have to be flexible to wrap
>around small diamter tanks. Did you know that those seismic straps around
>hot water heaters are only 26 gage, (0.018" thick)!!
>
>Larry Hauer
>
>
> >From: "Robert Kazanjy" <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >To: seaint@seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:14 -0700
> >
> >14 gage is ~.075" thick, a much more reasonable thickness
> >
> >cheers
> >Bob
> >
> >On 9/6/07, Josh Comfort <jcomfort@ggbse.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Table 11K in the 2005 NDS has single shear values for 3/8" diam. lag
> > > screws
> > > w/ 14 ga. side member thickness: G=0.5, Z(par)=200#, Z(perp)=130#.
> >Those
> > > values are for a penetration (p) of 8D into the wood. For 4D< p< 8D,
> >you
> > > multiply the values by p/8D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:32 PM
> > > To: seaint@seaint.org
> > > Subject: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm working on the anchorage of equipment to existing wood stud walls
> >and
> > > need to know what the minimum thickness of sheet metal strapping is
>for
> > > both
> > > a 3/8" diam. and 1/2" diam. lag bolt acting in shear and what those
> >shear
> > > values are. I understand the values ares in some light gauge metal
> > > handbook
> > > which I do not have. I would like the thickness to be the minimum
> > > possible,
> > > (24 ga.?), and still get an allowable shear value of about 400#.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Larry Hauer S.E.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft(r) Office
> >Live!
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *

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> > > *
> > > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
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RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Mark hit the nail (or is it post in this case) on the head. It is a function of the lateral stiffness of the supports. If the bent beam is TRULY a simply supported beam (i.e. one end if completely free to laterally deflect), then there will only be vertical reactions. If there is any lateral resistance at the "roller" support, then there will be horizontal reactions. The magnitude of those horizontal reactions then be come a function of how much lateral stiffness the supports have (if they are REALLY flexible, then the ends can move very easily...if they are rather stiff, then the ends cannot move so easily and more reaction will be present) as well as how stiff the bent beam is (i.e. how much does it want to deflect laterally under load).

The tought part is modelling the lateral stiffness of posts in combination with the wall. It is pretty hard to get an accurate model of that. Thus, you will likely "fudge" it along the lines of what Mark suggested.

Regards,

Scott

Adrian, MI

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Deardorff [mailto:mark@rstavares.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 1:54 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Assume one support is a slider. Check the horizontal deflection at the slider and assume half goes into each wall. There is no horizontal reaction unless you model in the stiffness of the posts and then they would have to be cantilevering off of the foundation for any horizontal force to develop. Just make the frame stiff enough to limit the pushout at the top of the posts to a reasonable and visually undetectable amount.

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928
mark@rstavares.com
www.rstavares.com

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps

Marlou,

Thanks for that info. re. being able to wrap a 16 ga. strap around the tank
perimeter- that is what I will use.

Larry Hauer

>From: "Marlou Rodriguez" <mbrodrig@mbrodriguez.com>
>Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>To: <seaint@seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:12:34 -0700
>
>I have used 16 ga straps to wrap around tanks in the past. The key is to
>make sure that the effective section at your connections can resist your
>tensile load. Use wider straps if necessary. Depending on your load I
>would not use anything less than 18 ga.
>
>Marlou Rodriguez, S.E.
>MBRodriguez Engineering Inc.
>2355 Oakland Road, Suite 14
>San Jose, CA 95131
>Tel: (408) 432-4866
>Cel: (408) 761-5013
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:09 AM
>To: seaint@seaint.org
>Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
>
>I'd love to use a thicker strap, but the straps have to be flexible to wrap
>around small diamter tanks. Did you know that those seismic straps around
>hot water heaters are only 26 gage, (0.018" thick)!!
>
>Larry Hauer
>
>
> >From: "Robert Kazanjy" <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> >To: seaint@seaint.org
> >Subject: Re: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:14 -0700
> >
> >14 gage is ~.075" thick, a much more reasonable thickness
> >
> >cheers
> >Bob
> >
> >On 9/6/07, Josh Comfort <jcomfort@ggbse.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Table 11K in the 2005 NDS has single shear values for 3/8" diam. lag
> > > screws
> > > w/ 14 ga. side member thickness: G=0.5, Z(par)=200#, Z(perp)=130#.
> >Those
> > > values are for a penetration (p) of 8D into the wood. For 4D< p< 8D,
> >you
> > > multiply the values by p/8D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Hauer [mailto:lrhauer@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:32 PM
> > > To: seaint@seaint.org
> > > Subject: Lag Bolts in Sht. Metal Straps
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm working on the anchorage of equipment to existing wood stud walls
> >and
> > > need to know what the minimum thickness of sheet metal strapping is
>for
> > > both
> > > a 3/8" diam. and 1/2" diam. lag bolt acting in shear and what those
> >shear
> > > values are. I understand the values ares in some light gauge metal
> > > handbook
> > > which I do not have. I would like the thickness to be the minimum
> > > possible,
> > > (24 ga.?), and still get an allowable shear value of about 400#.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Larry Hauer S.E.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft(r) Office
> >Live!
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > > *
> > > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
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> > >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe. Claim your
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>*
>* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Sorry, I will withdraw my statement below. A rigid frame that has pinned supports "will" develop lateral reactions due to vertical loads applied to the frame. However, in this case if the base is free to move laterally, the horizontal reactions are not developed.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com [mailto:William.Sherman@CH2M.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:18 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

No, you cannot just ignore the horizontal reactions from the rigid frame. Greater rigidity may reduce the force but it does not eliminate it. You should analyze the horizontal reactions based on frame analysis for the stiffnesses provided, and follow the load path and design for it.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Erik:

From static point of view there won't be a "Horizontal Reaction" however as Mark commented you'll need to pay attention to the "Horizontal Displacement" at the support.

Regards
Casey (Khashayar) Hemmatyar, SE

From: Mark Deardorff [mailto: mark@rstavares.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:54 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Assume one support is a slider. Check the horizontal deflection at the slider and assume half goes into each wall. There is no horizontal reaction unless you model in the stiffness of the posts and then they would have to be cantilevering off of the foundation for any horizontal force to develop. Just make the frame stiff enough to limit the pushout at the top of the posts to a reasonable and visually undetectable amount.

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928
mark@rstavares.com
www.rstavares.com

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.

From: erik gibbs [mailto: erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

Re: Bent Beam/Frame

Thanks. This frame is not being used to resist any lateral forces, only vertical.

On 9/7/07, Daryl Richardson <h.d.richardson@shaw.ca> wrote:

Gentlemen,

I agree with Josh on this one. The major impact is that all horizontal wind and earthquake loads must be resisted elsewhere since this frame can resist no horizontal loads.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Josh Comfort

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

If the tube steel members are connected together with a full pen weld at the apex, you have a "fixed" condition at the peak and your FBD should not show any lateral reactions unless there is an external lateral force. Assuming you are not using the bent beam/frame to support any lateral forces, I don't see any problem with design the supports for the vertical reaction only. Y ou would want to consider the horizontal deflection of the frame though and take that into account when designing the support posts.

If you had a "pinned" condition at the apex you would have lateral forces do the the ridge beam reaction that would need to be resolved.

Josh Comfort, P.E.
Golden, Graper & Burton, Inc.
1500 W. Fourth Ave., Suite 509
Spokane, WA 99204
(509)624-3224 (509)624-3225 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com [mailto: William.Sherman@CH2M.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:18 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

No, you cannot just ignore the horizontal reactions from the rigid frame. Greater rigidity may reduce the force but it does not eliminate it. You should analyze the horizontal reactions based on frame analysis for the stiffnesses provided, and follow the load path and design for it.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

Re: Bent Beam/Frame

Gentlemen,

I agree with Josh on this one. The major impact is that all horizontal wind and earthquake loads must be resisted elsewhere since this frame can resist no horizontal loads.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Josh Comfort

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

If the tube steel members are connected together with a full pen weld at the apex, you have a "fixed" condition at the peak and your FBD should not show any lateral reactions unless there is an external lateral force. Assuming you are not using the bent beam/frame to support any lateral forces, I don't see any problem with design the supports for the vertical reaction only. You would want to consider the horizontal deflection of the frame though and take that into account when designing the support posts.

If you had a "pinned" condition at the apex you would have lateral forces do the the ridge beam reaction that would need to be resolved.

Josh Comfort, P.E.
Golden, Graper & Burton, Inc.
1500 W. Fourth Ave., Suite 509
Spokane, WA 99204
(509)624-3224 (509)624-3225 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com [mailto:William.Sherman@CH2M.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:18 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

No, you cannot just ignore the horizontal reactions from the rigid frame. Greater rigidity may reduce the force but it does not eliminate it. You should analyze the horizontal reactions based on frame analysis for the stiffnesses provided, and follow the load path and design for it.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

RE: Bent Beam/Frame

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928
mark@rstavares.com
www.rstavares.com

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs

RE: Bent Beam/Frame

If the tube steel members are connected together with a full pen weld at the apex, you have a "fixed" condition at the peak and your FBD should not show any lateral reactions unless there is an external lateral force. Assuming you are not using the bent beam/frame to support any lateral forces, I don't see any problem with design the supports for the vertical reaction only. You would want to consider the horizontal deflection of the frame though and take that into account when designing the support posts.

If you had a "pinned" condition at the apex you would have lateral forces do the the ridge beam reaction that would need to be resolved.

Josh Comfort, P.E.
Golden, Graper & Burton, Inc.
1500 W. Fourth Ave., Suite 509
Spokane, WA 99204
(509)624-3224 (509)624-3225 Fax

-----Original Message-----
From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com [mailto:William.Sherman@CH2M.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:18 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Bent Beam/Frame

No, you cannot just ignore the horizontal reactions from the rigid frame. Greater rigidity may reduce the force but it does not eliminate it. You should analyze the horizontal reactions based on frame analysis for the stiffnesses provided, and follow the load path and design for it.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: erik gibbs [mailto:erik.gibbs@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:04 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Bent Beam/Frame

We are providing a steel bent beam/frame in a custom home to support the ridge beam within the ceiling instead of the typical king post to ceiling beam. The Steel frame is sized to fit within the depth of the R.R. and it is a 3/12 pitch, made with 2 square steel sections and a full penetration weld connection is provided at the apex, where the 2 beams meet. The bearing of the frame is at a 4x post at each end, hidden within the wall.

Now my question is, if you determine the reactions using a simple FBD there will be an x & y reaction at the bearing points at the 4x posts, but if the steel frame is designed as stiff as possible to limit the deflection to negligable amounts then I am assuming that there will only be vertical reactions in the y direction. Therefore a wood post can be used without designing the connection for a very large reaction in the horizontal direction.

Am I right in this assumption?

Erik Gibbs