Saturday, December 29, 2007

RE: Contec AAC

Actually, AAC is in the masonry code as an appendix and has been for two cycles (2005 MSJC and now the 2008 MSJC).  I will admit that I don't know if that part of the MSJC has been "deleted" when the MSJC is referenced in the IBC or not (I have be a good boy and acquire my 2006 IBC).
 
I would certainly agree that Rich is the person to talk to as he has done a lot of the testing through his students and is the past chair of the MSJC and was heavily involved with the AAC provisions in the MSJC.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
Adrian, MI
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:12 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Contec AAC

Chris,
Dr. Richard Klingner from Texas has been tasked to work with the AAC people to get AAC into the building code.  He knows the testing performed to date, the construction practices and what the code is intending.  He is having a bit of an issue getting building code developed. 
 
Just because something is not in the code does not necessarily make it "illegal" to use.  It adds significantly to the degree of engineering effort.  I would talk to Richard to find out what he would recommend.  I would also bill hourly.

Regards,
Harold Sprague

> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:33:12 -0800
> From: chris@jdwylieengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Contec AAC
>
> Hi All,
>
> We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
> of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
> material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
> number on the proposal.
>
> There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
> used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
> area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.
>
> Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
> If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
> more recent ICBO report?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>



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RE: Design Examples

6th Edition.

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Kratz [mailto:rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:58 PM
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Cc: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Design Examples


What edition?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Mark Johnson <markajohn@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> For wood, there is the latest text by Breyers et. el. It has been
> updated for the 2006 IBC and
> ASCE7-05. As a bonus, there is at least
> one example of wind analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
> MJ
>
>
>
>
>
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Off Topic: Wimax in Bangalore

List,
 
Wimax has arrived at Bangalore.
TATA VSNL is the supplier.
I just registered my name.
In 10 days, I hope to have a 256 KBps to 2 MBps wireless broadband internet conection at home.
The rate is Rs 1192 per month (about US $30 per month).
For early birds they offer a six month connection for the price of 4 months.
I have bitten the bait.
 
There will be no digging, no cabling, and no fuss.
A small antenna will be fixed to the balcony on my flat on the sixth floor.
 
I will let you know how the performance is after it is commissioned.
I just thought this would be of interest to all of you.
Happy New Year to all
Regards
Vish
 


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Friday, December 28, 2007

RE: Contec AAC

See http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICBO-ES/6062.pdf .

This is a reference to the ICC Legacy Report, not a recommendation for the
material.

Nels Roselund, SE


-----Original Message-----
From: chris.slater@gmail.com [mailto:chris.slater@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Chris Slater
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:33 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Contec AAC

Hi All,

We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
number on the proposal.

There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.

Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
more recent ICBO report?

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: Design of Pavement Section



Lloyd Pack <packman90@qwest.net> wrote:
Bill,

You will probably find that an asphalt section will be less expensive, unless
labor for excavation is very high. There is quite a large difference in the
roadway section for different soils capacities in the subgrade material. It
would be best to have a Geotechnical Engineer give you some recommendations
or at least some R-values or CBR numbers to design the section from.

Where I'm working, we often get R-values in the 7-50 range. Seven is very low
but we've got some clayey or silty sands here (old farmground - good for farming
not so good for roads) With the low R-value material we have a highly travelled
5-lane road that has a section of 3 ft., 22" sub-base, 8" roadbase, and 6" asphalt.

For the standard highway district road section or local city road section, they use
12" roadbase and 3" asphalt. For a driveway that will see very infrequent heavy
truck loading, you might be able to get by with 8" roadbase and 2.5-3" asphalt, again
depending on the sub-grade soil strength. I've seen some soils that were good
enough to pave the 3" or 2.5" of asphalt right over the existing ground. (after
scraping off the topsoil, of course)

I hope that this helps. It looks like you've got many other responses about
concrete so I won't touch on that.

Take Care,
Lloyd Pack


On 20 Dec 2007 at 13:27, Bill Allen wrote:

>
> Don™t ask me why, but I need to design a driveway (on grade) for a
> fire truck. I believe the owner wants to use AC, but if he must go
> with PCC, then he will.
>
> Are there any good guidelines, references, methods used to design a
> section for this purpose? I sure would hate to waste a bunch of time
> if this is something that is pretty simple.
>
> I™m supposed to be receiving wheel loads later today.
>
> TIA,
>
> T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E.
> ALLEN DESIGNS
> Consulting Structural Engineers
> V (949) 248-8588 ¢ F(949) 209-2509


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RE: Contec AAC

Chris,
Dr. Richard Klingner from Texas has been tasked to work with the AAC people to get AAC into the building code.  He knows the testing performed to date, the construction practices and what the code is intending.  He is having a bit of an issue getting building code developed. 
 
Just because something is not in the code does not necessarily make it "illegal" to use.  It adds significantly to the degree of engineering effort.  I would talk to Richard to find out what he would recommend.  I would also bill hourly.

Regards,
Harold Sprague

> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:33:12 -0800
> From: chris@jdwylieengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Contec AAC
>
> Hi All,
>
> We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
> of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
> material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
> number on the proposal.
>
> There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
> used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
> area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.
>
> Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
> If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
> more recent ICBO report?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>



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RE: Procedures

Thanks for all the feedback. It was very helpful. I think we are going to
leave the policy as is and address it on case by case basis.

However, there is one additional question that I wished I had asked - the age
of the responder.

I grew up with a party line and only one phone on our farm. Not with a phone
up or uh plugged into you ear. Also, I used the slide rule, logarithms, and
manual drafting (of which I still do). The only thing that I can some what
successfully do is plot a drawing with AutoCAD. I have a cell phone that I
use when out of the office (it is a pain because my big fingers typically hit
two buttons at once) and no I do not do text messaging. If clients can not
get me on the cell they leave a message and then call the line phone to the
office or at night call at home on the line phone. It seems this generation
(my son and daughter who are 18 and 24) can not live without the cell and
text messaging. Whole different generation. Whole different set of
problems.

We decided we needed a policy manual to get things down in writing and make
sure everybody is on the same page. If there is a discipline problem then we
have something in writing that we can go back to. Each person is required to
read and sign a form letter saying they read it. The policy covers vacation,
sick time, working hours, internet usage, dress code, sexual harassment,
smoking, drugs, telephone, moonlighting, etc. and this year we are adding
client confidentiality and security. The previous owner was very loose -
people were coming to work when they felt it was convenient, dress was
whatever, etc. From a legal position we felt we needed something in writing.
When there is a problem they can not say well the boss said I could do it, or
I did not know, or any other excuse. Some of our clients have drug polices
and expect us to have similar polices. We do work with DOE and need to
address security issues. Also, when people interview we can provide a policy
manual that provides all the details. We have not had any complaints or
people leave because of it. I think most people want to know where the
boundaries are.

This is already to long. Thank you again for your input and may you have a
successful 2008.

Gary Loomis, PE

My office is pretty laid back. No dress code, almost everyone listens to
music thru I-tunes on their computer and headphones. Cell phones are going
off all the time, from my Curb Your Enthusiam ring tone to a wide array
(haven't heard Eye of the Tiger yet - Da - Da Du Da) No one gives a damn and
we all usually put our phones on silent or vibrate when in meetings and
almost all of our guests do as well when in the conference room.

If it becomes a problem because of an annoying, loud, or too frequent, justs
bring it up verbally on the side with the employee one on one, why write it
into a manual or memo (did you put a cover sheet on the TPS reports?)

-g

On Dec 28, 2007 10:36 AM, Daryl Richardson <h.d.richardson@shaw.ca> wrote:


Gary, Jim,

Most of us are responsible adults. If there are repeat
offenders who don't know when they are over doing it they can usually be
spoken to privately and asked to "keep it to a minimum".

On the other hand, there are situations where the phone must
take priority. Back in the 1980s when I was taking MBA courses, there was
one lady whose pager went off in every class (sometimes more than once) and
she got up and left the class. I thought it was quite rude of her until I
came to know her. I was then made aware that she was a very nice lady; and
that she was Director of Pharmacy at Children's Hospital, on call 24 hours a
day. When that pager went a sick child needed medicine; and she responded.
Her pager interrupting the classes no longer seemed to be of any importance
at all!

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Getaz <mailto:jgetaz@shockeyprecast.com>
To: seaint@seaint.org <mailto:seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Procedures


Gary,

We have over three hundred employees,
of whom about forty work in the office. We have a Personnel Manual. We have a
large number of company and personal cell phones. There is a wide range here
in cell phone use. It is the employee's discretion how to use them. Most of
our Superintendents and Project Managers have their ringers turned on loud so
they can hear them while on jobsites, which is very disruptive when in
meetings. When our President is running the meeting, most are off or vibrate,
though, and no one takes a call. Just ask your folks to remember where they
are.

Jim Getaz


--
-gm

Re: Design Examples

Hey, you know, sometimes I can't sleep.

>From: Ralph Kratz <rhkratzse(--nospam--at)aol.com>

What edition?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Mark Johnson <markajohn(--nospam--at)yahoo.com> wrote:

For wood, there is the latest text by Breyers et. el. It has been
updated for the 2006 IBC and
ASCE7-05. As a bonus, there is at least
one example of wind analysis.
<


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*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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Re: Procedures

My office is pretty laid back. No dress code, almost everyone listens to music thru I-tunes on their computer and headphones. Cell phones are going off all the time, from my Curb Your Enthusiam ring tone to a wide array (haven't heard Eye of the Tiger yet - Da - Da Du Da) No one gives a damn and we all usually put our phones on silent or vibrate when in meetings and almost all of our guests do as well when in the conference room.

If it becomes a problem because of an annoying, loud, or too frequent, justs bring it up verbally on the side with the employee one on one, why write it into a manual or memo (did you put a cover sheet on the TPS reports?)

-g

On Dec 28, 2007 10:36 AM, Daryl Richardson <h.d.richardson@shaw.ca> wrote:
Gary, Jim,
 
        Most of us are responsible adults.  If there are repeat offenders who don't know when they are over doing it they can usually be spoken to privately and asked to "keep it to a minimum".
 
        On the other hand, there are situations where the phone must take priority.  Back in the 1980s when I was taking MBA courses, there was one lady whose pager went off in every class (sometimes more than once) and she got up and left the class.  I thought it was quite rude of her until I came to know her. I was then made aware that she was a very nice lady; and that she was Director of Pharmacy at Children's Hospital, on call 24 hours a day.  When that pager went a sick child needed medicine; and she responded.  Her pager interrupting  the classes no longer seemed to be of any importance at all!
 
Regards,
 
H. Daryl Richardson
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Getaz
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Procedures

            Gary,

                        We have over three hundred employees, of whom about forty work in the office. We have a Personnel Manual. We have a large number of company and personal cell phones. There is a wide range here in cell phone use. It is the employee's discretion how to use them. Most of our Superintendents and Project Managers have their ringers turned on loud so they can hear them while on jobsites, which is very disruptive when in meetings. When our President is running the meeting, most are off or vibrate, though, and no one takes a call. Just ask your folks to remember where they are.

            Jim Getaz




--
-gm

RE: Fundamental period of tanks


Dave,

No, the two are different.  The following is the formula for Ti (I will send you the Ci chart on a direct e-mail):

Ti = [Ci x H x (square root p / square root E) ] / square root (2tu / D)

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor



"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/28/2007 09:12 AM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
RE: Fundamental period of tanks





Follow up question:
 
Are you then saying that "T-sub-c" (natural period of first sloshing mode) is equal to "T-sub-i" (fundamental period of the tank & impulsive component of contents) in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7.6.1?  My original question was related to "T-sub-i", which appears to require some form of displacement determination, and I am not sure it can be accurately obtained without some complicated form of analysis.  If we are to say that "T-sub-c" = "T-sub-i", determining the seismic base shear appears to be a lot simpler.  I'm sure there must be something I'm missing ...
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:
Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent:
Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:36 PM
To:
seaint@seaint.org
Subject:
RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Dave,
Tom is on target as usual.  

It was never the intent to discourage the use of the formulas in API or AWWA.  The intent of the NERHP and the ASCE 7 was to foster updating to the more current ground motions and to present equations on how to employ the new ground motions.  As the API and AWWA have developed, the NEHRP and ASCE have referenced those documents.  

In the future, the NEHRP will represent more of the cutting edge of code development using the ASCE 7 as the base.  You will also find the NFPA 59A currently provides some information regarding vertical seismic ground motions not present in the current codes, but can drive the design of liquid containing structures especially in areas of close proximity to thrust or subduction faults.  

Regards,
Harold Sprague



To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Fundamental period of tanks
From: Tom.Hunt@fluor.com
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:43:59 -0800


Dave,


From API 650, the first mode sloshing wave period (Tc), in seconds, is taken from the below formula:


Tc = Ks x square root of D


Ks = 0.578 / square root of tanh(3.68H/D)


Thomas Hunt, S.E.

Fluor




"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/27/2007 12:04 PM

Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Fundamental period of tanks







Hello everyone,

 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.

 
Thanks,

Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.

Tulare, CA  93274

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Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
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Re: Contec AAC

Bill,

He didn't say he was bidding; he said he was ASKED to bid. He was
checking to see if the project was even feasible. Sounds O.K. to me so
far!!

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott, William N" <William.N.Scott@conocophillips.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Contec AAC


Even worse. This guy is bidding on work he is not familiar
with!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Kratz [mailto:rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:57 AM
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Cc: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Contec AAC

Am I the only one who cringes when I read, or hear, the phrase "bid on
a project"?

Ever hear of brain surgeons bidding???

Ralph

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:33 PM, "Chris Slater"
<chris@jdwylieengineering.com
> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
> of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
> material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
> number on the proposal.
>
> There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
> used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
> area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.
>
> Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
> If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
> more recent ICBO report?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
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Re: Procedures

Gary, Jim,
 
        Most of us are responsible adults.  If there are repeat offenders who don't know when they are over doing it they can usually be spoken to privately and asked to "keep it to a minimum".
 
        On the other hand, there are situations where the phone must take priority.  Back in the 1980s when I was taking MBA courses, there was one lady whose pager went off in every class (sometimes more than once) and she got up and left the class.  I thought it was quite rude of her until I came to know her. I was then made aware that she was a very nice lady; and that she was Director of Pharmacy at Children's Hospital, on call 24 hours a day.  When that pager went a sick child needed medicine; and she responded.  Her pager interrupting  the classes no longer seemed to be of any importance at all!
 
Regards,
 
H. Daryl Richardson
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Getaz
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Procedures

            Gary,

                        We have over three hundred employees, of whom about forty work in the office. We have a Personnel Manual. We have a large number of company and personal cell phones. There is a wide range here in cell phone use. It is the employee's discretion how to use them. Most of our Superintendents and Project Managers have their ringers turned on loud so they can hear them while on jobsites, which is very disruptive when in meetings. When our President is running the meeting, most are off or vibrate, though, and no one takes a call. Just ask your folks to remember where they are.

            Jim Getaz

RE: Contec AAC

Even worse. This guy is bidding on work he is not familiar
with!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Kratz [mailto:rhkratzse@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:57 AM
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Cc: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Contec AAC

Am I the only one who cringes when I read, or hear, the phrase "bid on
a project"?

Ever hear of brain surgeons bidding???

Ralph

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:33 PM, "Chris Slater"
<chris@jdwylieengineering.com
> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
> of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
> material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
> number on the proposal.
>
> There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
> used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
> area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.
>
> Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
> If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
> more recent ICBO report?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
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Re: Design Examples

What edition?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Mark Johnson <markajohn@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> For wood, there is the latest text by Breyers et. el. It has been
> updated for the 2006 IBC and
> ASCE7-05. As a bonus, there is at least
> one example of wind analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
> MJ
>
>
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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Re: Contec AAC

Am I the only one who cringes when I read, or hear, the phrase "bid on
a project"?

Ever hear of brain surgeons bidding???

Ralph

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2007, at 12:33 PM, "Chris Slater" <chris@jdwylieengineering.com
> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
> of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
> material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
> number on the proposal.
>
> There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
> used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
> area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.
>
> Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
> If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
> more recent ICBO report?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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Re: Fundamental period of tanks

The majority of our business involves rectangular and circular concrete tanks, so we use the provision of ACI 350.3. Chapter 9 describes the dynamic model. Since most of the walls or our tanks are of uniform thickness, we use the approximation for the wall stiffness given in the commentary of section 9.2.4 (rectangular tanks). It does require a bit of calculation to come up with the impulsive period (T-sub-i), but we have developed several spreadsheets that greatly speed up the work. Circular tanks are similar, but the formulas for stiffness are directly in the code, not the commentary.

--Kipp Martin
Carollo Engineers
Portland, OR


>>> "Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com> 12/27/2007 12:04 PM >>>
Hello everyone,

Those of you who deal with non-building structures: How are you
spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom
tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)? Are you actually modeling
and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material
standards (i.e. AWWA or API)? ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the
use of simplified equations.

Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.
Tulare, CA 93274


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Contec AAC

Hi All,

We've been asked to bid on a residence that is going to be built out
of Contec Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC). I've not worked with the
material before and am trying to get a handle on it before putting a
number on the proposal.

There is an older ICBO report on it, but that states that it can't be
used in Seismic zones 3 or 4, and since the project is in the SF Bay
area (zone 4) it seems like it's not going to work.

Does anyone on the list have experience designing with this material?
If so, can you point me to some good references and - hopefully - a
more recent ICBO report?

Thanks,

Chris

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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Re: Design Examples

For wood, there is the latest text by Breyers et. el. It has been updated for the 2006 IBC and
ASCE7-05. As a bonus, there is at least
one example of wind analysis.



MJ

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RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Follow up question:
 
Are you then saying that "T-sub-c" (natural period of first sloshing mode) is equal to "T-sub-i" (fundamental period of the tank & impulsive component of contents) in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7.6.1?  My original question was related to "T-sub-i", which appears to require some form of displacement determination, and I am not sure it can be accurately obtained without some complicated form of analysis.  If we are to say that "T-sub-c" = "T-sub-i", determining the seismic base shear appears to be a lot simpler.  I'm sure there must be something I'm missing ...
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:36 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Dave,
Tom is on target as usual. 
 
It was never the intent to discourage the use of the formulas in API or AWWA.  The intent of the NERHP and the ASCE 7 was to foster updating to the more current ground motions and to present equations on how to employ the new ground motions.  As the API and AWWA have developed, the NEHRP and ASCE have referenced those documents. 
 
In the future, the NEHRP will represent more of the cutting edge of code development using the ASCE 7 as the base.  You will also find the NFPA 59A currently provides some information regarding vertical seismic ground motions not present in the current codes, but can drive the design of liquid containing structures especially in areas of close proximity to thrust or subduction faults. 

Regards,
Harold Sprague



To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Fundamental period of tanks
From: Tom.Hunt@fluor.com
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:43:59 -0800


Dave,

From API 650, the first mode sloshing wave period (Tc), in seconds, is taken from the below formula:

Tc = Ks x square root of D

Ks = 0.578 / square root of tanh(3.68H/D)

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor




"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/27/2007 12:04 PM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Fundamental period of tanks





Hello everyone,
 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.

Tulare, CA  93274

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Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

Re: Procedures

            Gary,

                        We have over three hundred employees, of whom about forty work in the office. We have a Personnel Manual. We have a large number of company and personal cell phones. There is a wide range here in cell phone use. It is the employee’s discretion how to use them. Most of our Superintendents and Project Managers have their ringers turned on loud so they can hear them while on jobsites, which is very disruptive when in meetings. When our President is running the meeting, most are off or vibrate, though, and no one takes a call. Just ask your folks to remember where they are.

            Jim Getaz

Re: Design Examples

the AWC produces a book I received with my 2005 "Wood Design Package" (NDS, etc.) which included a thick volume entitled "ASD/LRFD Structural Wood Design Solved Example Problems".  I haven't cracked it so I can't say how good it is...but it's got 400+ pages.
Jordan


Dave Adams wrote:
Message
Hello everyone,
 
AISC has done a wonderful job with their CD of design examples that is issued with the 13th edition of the steel construction manual.  Does anyone know if ACI has issued design examples for use with ACI 318-05 or ACI 530-05?  How about AF&PA in regards to NDS-05?
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.
Tulare, CA  93274

Re: Procedures

I would tend to disagree a bit with the paging vs cellphone argument.
It would probably be true if every cellphone had a simple, quiet ring.
Unfortunately, people tend to have their cellphones very loud (so they
can hear them in busy places/in the car/in their purse), and so many
have non-generic ringtones. You may as well be paging someone when "Eye
of the Tiger" starts blaring from the other side of the office.

In response to Gary, we're a 4 person office with a "policy letter"
which spans just under two pages. We kept it simple for just the reason
Don mentioned - we wanted to be a low-maintenance workplace. Don's
focus on business calls to the cellphone is probably a bit misplaced in
an engineering office like yours. I'm not sure I've ever had a
contractor in my office when his or cellphone didn't ring during a
meeting. Since there are rarely more than the two of us, I leave it up
to the contractor whether to answer it or call the person back. Then
again, my meter is running, and there's no "lost" time. For meetings
with multiple people, I expect cellphone silence. This is hardly a good
example, but at my Rotary meetings, I think there's a $10 "fine" for any
cellphone which rings.

As for missing critical calls...I don't answer my cellphone in the
office, and specifically ask that people not call my on my cell phone
unless there are special circumstances. I bought a pbx which can forward
calls to my mobile from the office if I don't answer at my desk (and
goes straight to voicemail if I'm on the landline). FWIW I usually have
my call on vibrate, and my rigntone - when it's on - is the old (1960s
era) ma-bell phone ring.

I think it's perfectly acceptable in a quiet office to request that all
cell phones be on vibrate, and on silence in a meeting, though I don't
require it. Then again, it hasn't been a problem in my office. Yet.

Jordan

Mark Gilligan wrote:
> I have not found cell phones to be a problem even in an open office situation.
>
> What has been a problem is the receptionist paging people over the office intercom to take land line calls. Research has shown that these announcements cause people to loose their focus for about 15 minutes on the average.. So given an office of 20 people with 50% focused on their work you will loose about 150 minutes of productivity. Now compare this to the cell phone which should not be any more disruptive than a land line call. More often than not the individual being paged is a principal who ends up disrupting the work of the staff.
>
> The stricter you make the rules the more likely people are going to leave right at quitting time. What is the benefit of an engineer staying an extra half hour to finish something at the end of the day and dosen't bother to bill you for the time.
>
> A flexible office environment doesn't mean anything goes, it just means that you focus on the objectives and you talk to the employee if they abuse the flexibility.
>
> Mark Gilligan
>
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Thursday, December 27, 2007

RE: Procedures

I have not found cell phones to be a problem even in an open office situation.

What has been a problem is the receptionist paging people over the office intercom to take land line calls. Research has shown that these announcements cause people to loose their focus for about 15 minutes on the average.. So given an office of 20 people with 50% focused on their work you will loose about 150 minutes of productivity. Now compare this to the cell phone which should not be any more disruptive than a land line call. More often than not the individual being paged is a principal who ends up disrupting the work of the staff.

The stricter you make the rules the more likely people are going to leave right at quitting time. What is the benefit of an engineer staying an extra half hour to finish something at the end of the day and dosen't bother to bill you for the time.

A flexible office environment doesn't mean anything goes, it just means that you focus on the objectives and you talk to the employee if they abuse the flexibility.

Mark Gilligan

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RE: Procedures

Don -

What did you expect?

Look where you are!

Architect lurkers spoiling our analosity.

Sheesh!

:o)

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E.

ALLEN DESIGNS <http://www.AllenDesigns.com>

Consulting Structural Engineers
V (949) 248-8588 * F(949) 209-2509

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Bruckman [mailto:bruckmandesign@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 4:03 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Procedures

<snip>

Bottom line...seems way too anal to me...

-DB

_____

RE: Procedures

Lots of questions for a rather simple issue. IMO, all this depends on how
much you folks rely on cell phones. In my business, I get more than half of
all my business calls on cell so not allowing them would be an example of
20th century backwardness which could hurt my bottom line.

I see little reason for any these rules. It's not the cell phone that
causes the disruption, it's the person taking/making the call or talking too
loudly once on. The cell phone is no different than a land line, so why
even make the distinction?

The only place I agree would be in meetings, which are sort of akin to
taking a cell phone into a movie theatre. Otherwise, the rules are just
examples of the reasons why I started my own business. And, IMO, with those
rules, some of your employees might end up thinking the same thing. I can
just hear an employee telling his wife, "I swear, Hon'...he says he can hear
the 'vibrate' and it annoys him. That's why I never knew you called. He made
me turn it off."

Bottom line...seems way too anal to me...

-DB

_____

From: Gary Loomis [mailto:gloomis@MasterEngineersinc.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:34 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Procedures

This is not technical matter, however it does impact how we do our work.
Our company after 20 years finally developed a Personnel Manual three years
ago. One of the items that I would like to revise is the cell phone policy.
I would allow cell phones only if (1) they are on silent or vibrate mode in
the office and the person uses it only in his/her office, (2) no cell phones
in meetings even if they are on vibrate (I can still hear them vibrate), and
(3) visitors would be asked to put their phones on silent/vibrate when
coming into the office. The only reason I would allow the cell phones to be
on in the office is to free up the company phone lines (we have 4 lines and
at times all four are ringing).

One of the other directors of the company wants to know what other companies
are doing. To me, it does not matter we should establish our procedures as
we see fit. However, to address his concerns, would you please take a few
minutes to answer the following questions.

1. Does your company have a personnel manual?
2. How many employees are in your company? (We have 15).
3. Does your company allow the use of cell phones in the office?

* Company provided phones?
* Personal phones?

4. If so, are they required to be silent/vibrate mode? Turned off?
5. Are they permitted in meetings?

* On silent/vibrate mode only?
* Not at all?

6. Do you have signs asking visitors to turn off their cell phones?
7. How do you enforce the policy? Are you successful?

Thank you for taking the time to complete this informal survey.

Gary Loomis, PE

Master Engineers and Designers, Inc

Lynchburg, VA

RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Very good -- thank you, gentlemen!
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:36 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Dave,
Tom is on target as usual. 
 
It was never the intent to discourage the use of the formulas in API or AWWA.  The intent of the NERHP and the ASCE 7 was to foster updating to the more current ground motions and to present equations on how to employ the new ground motions.  As the API and AWWA have developed, the NEHRP and ASCE have referenced those documents. 
 
In the future, the NEHRP will represent more of the cutting edge of code development using the ASCE 7 as the base.  You will also find the NFPA 59A currently provides some information regarding vertical seismic ground motions not present in the current codes, but can drive the design of liquid containing structures especially in areas of close proximity to thrust or subduction faults. 

Regards,
Harold Sprague



To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Fundamental period of tanks
From: Tom.Hunt@fluor.com
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:43:59 -0800


Dave,

From API 650, the first mode sloshing wave period (Tc), in seconds, is taken from the below formula:

Tc = Ks x square root of D

Ks = 0.578 / square root of tanh(3.68H/D)

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor




"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/27/2007 12:04 PM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Fundamental period of tanks





Hello everyone,
 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.

Tulare, CA  93274

------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------ 


Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

RE: Fundamental period of tanks

Dave,
Tom is on target as usual. 
 
It was never the intent to discourage the use of the formulas in API or AWWA.  The intent of the NERHP and the ASCE 7 was to foster updating to the more current ground motions and to present equations on how to employ the new ground motions.  As the API and AWWA have developed, the NEHRP and ASCE have referenced those documents. 
 
In the future, the NEHRP will represent more of the cutting edge of code development using the ASCE 7 as the base.  You will also find the NFPA 59A currently provides some information regarding vertical seismic ground motions not present in the current codes, but can drive the design of liquid containing structures especially in areas of close proximity to thrust or subduction faults. 

Regards,
Harold Sprague



To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Fundamental period of tanks
From: Tom.Hunt@fluor.com
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:43:59 -0800


Dave,

From API 650, the first mode sloshing wave period (Tc), in seconds, is taken from the below formula:

Tc = Ks x square root of D

Ks = 0.578 / square root of tanh(3.68H/D)

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor




"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/27/2007 12:04 PM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Fundamental period of tanks





Hello everyone,
 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.

Tulare, CA  93274

------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------ 


Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

Procedures

This is not technical matter, however it does impact how we do our work. Our
company after 20 years finally developed a Personnel Manual three years ago.
One of the items that I would like to revise is the cell phone policy. I
would allow cell phones only if (1) they are on silent or vibrate mode in the
office and the person uses it only in his/her office, (2) no cell phones in
meetings even if they are on vibrate (I can still hear them vibrate), and (3)
visitors would be asked to put their phones on silent/vibrate when coming
into the office. The only reason I would allow the cell phones to be on in
the office is to free up the company phone lines (we have 4 lines and at
times all four are ringing).

One of the other directors of the company wants to know what other companies
are doing. To me, it does not matter we should establish our procedures as
we see fit. However, to address his concerns, would you please take a few
minutes to answer the following questions.

1. Does your company have a personnel manual?
2. How many employees are in your company? (We have 15).
3. Does your company allow the use of cell phones in the office?

* Company provided phones?
* Personal phones?

4. If so, are they required to be silent/vibrate mode? Turned off?
5. Are they permitted in meetings?

* On silent/vibrate mode only?
* Not at all?

6. Do you have signs asking visitors to turn off their cell phones?
7. How do you enforce the policy? Are you successful?

Thank you for taking the time to complete this informal survey.

Gary Loomis, PE

Master Engineers and Designers, Inc

Lynchburg, VA

Re: Fundamental period of tanks


Dave,

From API 650, the first mode sloshing wave period (Tc), in seconds, is taken from the below formula:

Tc = Ks x square root of D

Ks = 0.578 / square root of tanh(3.68H/D)

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor




"Dave Adams" <davea@laneengineers.com>
12/27/2007 12:04 PM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Fundamental period of tanks





Hello everyone,
 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.

Tulare, CA  93274

------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------ 

Fundamental period of tanks

Hello everyone,
 
Those of you who deal with non-building structures:  How are you spending your time determining the fundamental period of flat-bottom tanks (T-sub-i in ASCE 7-05, Section 15.7)?  Are you actually modeling and calculating the value or using simplified equations from material standards (i.e. AWWA or API)?  ASCE 7 appears to really discourage the use of simplified equations.
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.
Tulare, CA  93274

E-Defense Blind Analysis Contest Results

I just wanted to share this good news with you, and congratulate Dr. Ganesh Thiagarajan. He is a friend and colleague of mine. Dr. Thiagarajan is a professor of engineering at the University of Missouri - Kansas City (UMKC). The UMKC structural engineering program is very modest.
 
Please take a moment and review the link to the competition results:
http://www.blind-analysis.jp/kekka/BA_e.pdf
This is an outline of the competition:
http://www.blind-analysis.jp/eng/whatsnew/index.html
 
Dr. Thiagarajan led the team that won an E-Defense international competition on performing a 3D analysis and prediction of the behavior of a steel building subjected to earthquake ground motion. The competition was from some of the best universities of the world in earthquake engineering.
 
Dr. Thiagarajan has every right to be proud to win this competition. Please take a moment, and review the link to the competition results.
 
Regards,
Harold O. Sprague
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Thiagarajan, Ganesh [
mailto:ganesht@umkc.edu]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 8:35 AM
To: Sprague, Harold O.
Subject: FW: E-Defense Blind Analysis Contest Results

Dear Harold and Jon,
I wanted to share with you a good tiding we have had with simulation. Our team stood first in an international competetion (7 countries participated) which required a two stage simulation and blind prediction of many parameters (acceleration, velocity, displacement, relative drift, drift angle ,
base shear, overturning moment) of a 4-story steel building. The building was subjected to
a three dimensional acceleration motion simultaneously. It was both a shock and a surprise to us with
a number of practicing engineers and researchers worldwide competing.

Regards
Ganesh

Ganesh Thiagarajan Ph.D P.E Assistant Professor Civil Engineering 350J, Flarsheim Hall, 5100 Rockhill Road University of Missouri, Kansas City Kansas City, MO-64110
http://g.web.umkc.edu/ganesht/ 816-235-1288 816-235-1260(Fax)
________________________________
From: E-Defense [
mailto:s.janda@bosai.go.jp]
Sent: Fri 12/21/2007 12:22 AM
To: Thiagarajan, Ganesh
Subject: E-Defense Blind Analysis Contest Results
 
 
To participants in Blind Analysis Contest
 
Thank you for participating in the E-Defense Blind Analysis Contest.
 
We finshed examining Blind Analysis Contest and announce the Results.
 
Yours very sincerely. 
*********************************************
National Research Institute
for Earth Science and Disaster Prevention,
Hyogo Earthquake Engineering Research Center
Blind Analysis Contest
*********************************************
 
 


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RE: Design Examples

            Dave,

                        In addition to Harold’s information, ACI is working on a 318 Design Case Study section in its Concrete Knowledge Center (http://www.concrete.org/TKC/CaseStudies.asp ). They consider it a member benefit, so it does not come with 318. These follow the design of an entire structure, with links to 318 and articles that used in the development of 318. Some links take one to PCA, as Harold suggested. The case study package includes drawings used for construction.

                        Right now there are only two structures there. I understand they are working on more.

            HTH,

            Jim Getaz

            Winchester, Virginia

 

Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Re: 2008 Los Angeles Building Code

Paul
Check  ICCSAFE
 
 

This item is not yet available!
It is scheduled to ship in February.

Dave A.

 

 

----- Original Message -----
To: seaint
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: 2008 Los Angeles Building Code

Second post attempt, didn't see the first one go through.

I'm trying to find the new City of LA amendments that will be used next year but their code web site ( http://www.ladbs.org/permits/codes.htm ) seems only to reflect the current (and soon to be old) code.
 
Does anyone know if the 2008 LA code is available on the web yet?
 
Paul.
Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2008 Los Angeles Building Code

Second post attempt, didn't see the first one go through.

I'm trying to find the new City of LA amendments that will be used next year but their code web site ( http://www.ladbs.org/permits/codes.htm ) seems only to reflect the current (and soon to be old) code.
 
Does anyone know if the 2008 LA code is available on the web yet?
 
Paul.
Phoenix, AZ

RE: Design Examples

For concrete use the "PCA Notes on ACI 318-05 Building Code Requirements for Structural Concrete with Design Applications".

There are seismic examples in the FEMA 451. 
 
Concrete masonry has the Tek Notes on the NCMA web site.  They have some examples.
 
I don't do that much with wood. 
 
Regards,
Harold Sprague



Subject: Design Examples
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:52:59 -0800
From: davea@laneengineers.com
To: seaint@seaint.org

Hello everyone,
 
AISC has done a wonderful job with their CD of design examples that is issued with the 13th edition of the steel construction manual.  Does anyone know if ACI has issued design examples for use with ACI 318-05 or ACI 530-05?  How about AF&PA in regards to NDS-05?
 
Thanks,
Dave K. Adams, P.E., S.E.
LANE ENGINEERS, INC.
Tulare, CA  93274
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