Saturday, June 28, 2008

Re: I'm I just a small thinker? P____d!

Governments also pass laws on their own to protect their own turf or to
keep the public quiet. Don't want the peasants getting out the torches
and pitch-forks, do we?
Gary

Christopher Wright wrote:
>
> On Jun 25, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Rhkratzse@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Most active members in large national organizations are from larger
>> firms, so they think in terms of larger firms, and the smaller firms
>> inherently and unavoidably get shortchanged, so we just have to live
>> with that, or maybe organizeorganize and/or grow into large firms,
>> right?
> Welcome to the 21st century.
>
>> It's sort of like laws get written, passed, and enforced in the legal
>> system by lawyers, so -- guess what! -- they're oriented toward
>> lawyers who can then charge multiples of engineers' fees to help
>> anyone who unfortunately gets entrapped by that selfsame system.
> It's not sort of like that at all. Laws get passed when people with
> money decide they want them passed and they're oriented so the same
> people with money can have their asses covered at taxpayer expense. So
> you get manufactured product exemptions in the engineering laws and
> protective clauses and earmarks for roads to nowhere.
>
>
> Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
> chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
> .......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
> 1864)
> http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/
>
>
>
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Friday, June 27, 2008

R=3 Application for Non-building Structures

KP,

In my experience, pipe racks are not typically considered building
structures, and therefore AISC 341 does not generally apply to them. I
think I have heard rumors that AISC has started work on developing a
standard for non-building structures (anybody from AISC can feel free to
squash or confirm the rumors!). To be consistent with the IBC, ASCE7 and
AISC, this appears to limit the R to 3.0 for most cases. If the pipe rack
is inside and can be considered a component of the building, it is covered
in ASCE7 section 13.6. If it is an exterior freestanding structure, it is
covered by ASCE7 section 15.5.2, which references Table 15.4-1. On this
table, the designer can choose different R values, each with different
limits and requirements. If you are in SDC B, you can use an R=1, and
design with AISC 360, with no restrictions.

Dmitri Wright

All,
=20
We have a pipe rack that is SDC B, Ordinary Moment Frame (OMF) in the
transverse and Ordinary Concentrically Brace Frame (OCBF) in the
longitudinal direction. The question is can we use Table 12.2-1 (page
122) ASCE 7-05, H. STEEL SYSTEMS NOT SPECIFICALLY DETAILED FOR SEISMIC
RESISTANCE, EXCLUDING CANTILEVER COLUMN SYSTEMS, R =3D 3 and avoid using
the AISC 341 - Seismic Design Manual?
=20
Table 12.2-1 (pg 122) may not be applicable for pipe rack design
(non-building structure similar to building) because chapter 12 in ASCE
7-05 is designed for building application only. Therefore section H for
"steel systems not specifically detailed for seismic resistance", may
not be applicable.
Pipe rack is covered under Table 15.4-1 - Non-Building Structures
Similar to Building, and the detailing requirements for ordinary moment
frame spell out AISC 341, so special detailing is required using a R =3D
3.5. If the use of R=3D3 is allowed a section similar to section H on
table 12.2-1 will be placed on Table 15.4-1? So unless we use R =3D 1.0
(unlimited height), we have to go by the AISC 341 with special seismic
detailing.
=20
Does anybody have experience on this issue before? please advise.
=20
Thank you in advance.
KP

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Re: www.seismicfactor.com

Sorry, press too fast, missing the important link.
It is  "stevemorse.org", I got this one from "SEAINT"  as well,  forgot when?
Chris.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Chris Tse <cylt2007@gmail.com> wrote:
I use this one to convert address to latitude/longitude. It prompts 3 to 4 findings. I choose the
one converged by two of them. Then input it into USGS progream to get the seismic spectral values.
Couple more steps, but work.

Chris Tse


On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:24 AM, xmy987 <xmy987@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually Gordon, www.seismicfactor.com does not use the zip code average. It
is obtains specific Ss and S1 based on the actual address. I know many
programs out there use the zip code average which can result in seismic
coefficients being off by as much as 40 percent. I use it regularly and
found it quite reliable and saves me quite a few steps.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:56 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: www.seismicfactor.com

Exactly what I was looking for.  Thank you.

Gordon



<<I map the address in Google Maps to get the lat/lon.  Then I use the
USGS tool to get the design values.

You can get it here:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php

Chris>>




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Re: www.seismicfactor.com

I use this one to convert address to latitude/longitude. It prompts 3 to 4 findings. I choose the
one converged by two of them. Then input it into USGS progream to get the seismic spectral values.
Couple more steps, but work.

Chris Tse

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:24 AM, xmy987 <xmy987@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually Gordon, www.seismicfactor.com does not use the zip code average. It
is obtains specific Ss and S1 based on the actual address. I know many
programs out there use the zip code average which can result in seismic
coefficients being off by as much as 40 percent. I use it regularly and
found it quite reliable and saves me quite a few steps.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:56 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: www.seismicfactor.com

Exactly what I was looking for.  Thank you.

Gordon



<<I map the address in Google Maps to get the lat/lon.  Then I use the
USGS tool to get the design values.

You can get it here:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php

Chris>>




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RE: Elevator Loads

JJ,

 

Just finish one for the cement plant providing an elevator used for transporting workers, equipment up to the top of the silo (160 ft). This elevator has an independent structure, wrap around with an access platform, and stairways.

 

Aside from the loads being provided by the elevator company, a close coordination also is required. One is for the no of access (entry/exit) and emergency stop (exit) requirements. Secondly, the anchoring system where the guide rail is mounted plays and important role in the design, transferring the magnitude of force to your structure.

 

I considered both live and dead in my seismic analysis noting that an earthquake can strikes even when the elevator is empty or full.

 

Thanks,

 

Julius

 

Engr. Julius Micayas

P.E. license no.32969

Project Manager/Sr Lead Structural Engineer

River Consulting LLC

111 Veterans Memorial Boulevard

               Suite 1600

Metairie, Louisiana 70005

Phone - 504-841-3014 (direct)

504 837-5275 (office)

Fax - 504-837-2986

E-mail: jmicayas@riverconsulting.com

W-page:            www.riverconsulting.com


From: John J. Treff [mailto:jjtreff@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:28 PM
To: SEAInt
Subject: Elevator Loads

 

Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ

 


The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i’m Talkathon. Check it out!

RE: Elevator Loads

This is great info Rick!  THX!





Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:42:43 -0700
From: mohr2circle@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Elevator Loads
To: seaint@seaint.org

California BC 1614A.1.15modifies ASCE13.6.10 to read...
 
Design of guiderail support .... shall use the weight of the cab plus not more that 40% of it rated load, seismic forces shall be assumed to be distributed 1/3 to the top and 2/3 to the bottom guiding members, unless other data provided.
 
Seismic forces per ASCE 13.6.10.1, which takes you to 13.3.1, and specifies a minimum value of .5g.
 
Obviously for you primary frames and systems, elevator DL is absorbed in the building deadload and building base shear coefficient.

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Loads
To: "SEAInt" <seaint@seaint.org>
Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 10:27 AM

Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the iʼm Talkathon. Check it out!



Watch "Cause Effect," a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more.

RE: www.seismicfactor.com

Actually Gordon, www.seismicfactor.com does not use the zip code average. It
is obtains specific Ss and S1 based on the actual address. I know many
programs out there use the zip code average which can result in seismic
coefficients being off by as much as 40 percent. I use it regularly and
found it quite reliable and saves me quite a few steps.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:56 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: www.seismicfactor.com

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Gordon

<<I map the address in Google Maps to get the lat/lon. Then I use the
USGS tool to get the design values.

You can get it here:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php

Chris>>


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Re: Elevator Loads

CBC is light on recommendations, it used to be 1998 CBC Appendix 30. The elevator manufacturers use the 1614A.1.15, or something similar. When you get their shop drawings the values match that derivation.

 

I still use 1614A for CBC and ASCE 7 applications. 

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, David Topete <d.topete73@gmail.com> wrote:

From: David Topete <d.topete73@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Loads
To: seaint@seaint.org
Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 10:55 AM

Rick,
You noted CBC section 1614A.1.15, which implies DSA or OSHPD amendments.  Not having the code in front of me (actually I am at a Revit training class), is the section still applicable?  Thanks.

2008/6/27 Rick <mohr2circle@yahoo.com>:

California BC 1614A.1.15modifies ASCE13.6.10 to read...

 

Design of guiderail support .... shall use the weight of the cab plus not more that 40% of it rated load, seismic forces shall be assumed to be distributed 1/3 to the top and 2/3 to the bottom guiding members, unless other data provided.

 

Seismic forces per ASCE 13.6.10.1, which takes you to 13.3.1, and specifies a minimum value of .5g.

 

Obviously for you primary frames and systems, elevator DL is absorbed in the building deadload and building base shear coefficient.

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Loads
To: "SEAInt" <seaint@seaint.org>
Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 10:27 AM


Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!




--
David Topete, SE

Re: Elevator Loads

Rick,
You noted CBC section 1614A.1.15, which implies DSA or OSHPD amendments.  Not having the code in front of me (actually I am at a Revit training class), is the section still applicable?  Thanks.

2008/6/27 Rick <mohr2circle@yahoo.com>:

California BC 1614A.1.15modifies ASCE13.6.10 to read...

 

Design of guiderail support .... shall use the weight of the cab plus not more that 40% of it rated load, seismic forces shall be assumed to be distributed 1/3 to the top and 2/3 to the bottom guiding members, unless other data provided.

 

Seismic forces per ASCE 13.6.10.1, which takes you to 13.3.1, and specifies a minimum value of .5g.

 

Obviously for you primary frames and systems, elevator DL is absorbed in the building deadload and building base shear coefficient.

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Loads
To: "SEAInt" <seaint@seaint.org>
Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 10:27 AM


Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!




--
David Topete, SE

RE: www.seismicfactor.com

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Gordon

<<I map the address in Google Maps to get the lat/lon. Then I use the
USGS tool to get the design values.

You can get it here:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php

Chris>>


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Re: Elevator Loads

California BC 1614A.1.15modifies ASCE13.6.10 to read...

 

Design of guiderail support .... shall use the weight of the cab plus not more that 40% of it rated load, seismic forces shall be assumed to be distributed 1/3 to the top and 2/3 to the bottom guiding members, unless other data provided.

 

Seismic forces per ASCE 13.6.10.1, which takes you to 13.3.1, and specifies a minimum value of .5g.

 

Obviously for you primary frames and systems, elevator DL is absorbed in the building deadload and building base shear coefficient.

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Loads
To: "SEAInt" <seaint@seaint.org>
Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 10:27 AM

Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!

RE: Elevator Loads

Fastest keyboard in the west, David.

 

Beat me to it.

 

 

David L. Fisher SE PE

Senior Director

 

The Fisher Companies Ltd. - Cayman

372 West Ontario Chicago 60610

75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI

319 A Street Boston 02210

 

312.573.1701

312.573.1726 facsimile

312.622.0409 mobile

 

www.thefishercompanies.com

www.fpse.com

 

"England expects every officer and man to do his duty this day."

 

                                       - Admiral Horatio Nelson

                                         HMS Victory

                                         Trafalgar 1805

 


From: David Topete [mailto:d.topete73@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:31 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Elevator Loads

 

These loads are typically provided by the elevator manufacturer.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ

 


The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!




--
David Topete, SE

Re: Elevator Loads

These loads are typically provided by the elevator manufacturer.

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John J. Treff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!



--
David Topete, SE

Elevator Loads

Hello,
Would any of you be willing to share with me calculations of how to apply elevator loads to a building?  Do the loads have to be provided by the elevator manufacturer?  How does this work to incorporate them into my gravity loads and seismic loads?  Any information or hints you can give me about this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

JJ



The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check it out!

Re: www.seismicfactor.com

I map the address in Google Maps to get the lat/lon. Then I use the
USGS tool to get the design values.

You can get it here:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php

Chris

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Michel Blangy <mblangy@satco-inc.com> wrote:
> http://www.geocodeme.com/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:01 AM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: RE: www.seismicfactor.com
>
> OK, this was a few months ago:
>
>
>
> <<From: atc769@gawab.com [mailto:atc769@gawab.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 2:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: www.seismicfactor.com
>
>
>
> Has anyone tried www.seismicfactor.com? Pretty neat.
>
>
>
> Bill>>
>
>
>
>
>
> But I just checked it out because I recently started poking around the new
> Enercalc 6, and noticed that I can no longer input latitude & longitude
> directly, only the zip or city. It looks like this website
> (www.seismicfactor.com) is doing the zip code lookup thing, too. I used to
> use the IBC disk, but '06 didn't come with one, presumably because it's
> readily available at the USGS site. Now that I need it, I can't find it
> online. What's anyone using for lat/lon lookup of Ss & S1?
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> Gordon Goodell
>
> ExchangeDefender Message Security: Check Authenticity
>

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RE: www.seismicfactor.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:01 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: www.seismicfactor.com

OK, this was a few months ago:

 

<<From: atc769@gawab.com [mailto:atc769@gawab.com]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 2:21 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: www.seismicfactor.com

 

Has anyone tried www.seismicfactor.com? Pretty neat.

 

Bill>>

 

 

But I just checked it out because I recently started poking around the new Enercalc 6, and noticed that I can no longer input latitude & longitude directly, only the zip or city.  It looks like this website (www.seismicfactor.com) is doing the zip code lookup thing, too.  I used to use the IBC disk, but ’06 didn’t come with one, presumably because it’s readily available at the USGS site.  Now that I need it, I can’t find it online.  What’s anyone using for lat/lon lookup of Ss & S1?

 

regards,

Gordon Goodell


ExchangeDefender Message Security: Check Authenticity

Re: I'm I just a small thinker?      P____d!

Thanks, I wasn't feeling very welcome here!  :)

I think we're saying the same thing, just in slightly different terms, and substituting "people with money" for "lawyers."  (There's a difference???)

Ralph

In a message dated 6/27/08 8:36:37 AM, chrisw@skypoint.com writes:
On Jun 25, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Rhkratzse@aol.com wrote:

> Most active members in large national organizations are from larger 
> firms, so they think in terms of larger firms, and the smaller 
> firms inherently and unavoidably get shortchanged, so we just have 
> to live with that, or maybe organizeorganize and/or grow into large 
> firms, right?
Welcome to the 21st century.

> It's sort of like laws get written, passed, and enforced in the 
> legal system by lawyers, so -- guess what! -- they're oriented 
> toward lawyers who can then charge multiples of engineers' fees to 
> help anyone who unfortunately gets entrapped by that selfsame system.
It's not sort of like that at all. Laws get passed when people with 
money decide they want them passed and they're oriented so the same 
people with money can have their asses covered at taxpayer expense. 
So you get manufactured product exemptions in the engineering laws 
and protective clauses and earmarks for roads to nowhere.


Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com   | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/



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Re: I'm I just a small thinker? P____d!

On Jun 25, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Rhkratzse@aol.com wrote:

> Most active members in large national organizations are from larger
> firms, so they think in terms of larger firms, and the smaller
> firms inherently and unavoidably get shortchanged, so we just have
> to live with that, or maybe organizeorganize and/or grow into large
> firms, right?
Welcome to the 21st century.

> It's sort of like laws get written, passed, and enforced in the
> legal system by lawyers, so -- guess what! -- they're oriented
> toward lawyers who can then charge multiples of engineers' fees to
> help anyone who unfortunately gets entrapped by that selfsame system.
It's not sort of like that at all. Laws get passed when people with
money decide they want them passed and they're oriented so the same
people with money can have their asses covered at taxpayer expense.
So you get manufactured product exemptions in the engineering laws
and protective clauses and earmarks for roads to nowhere.


Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
.......................................| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania
1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/

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Thursday, June 26, 2008

Re: Wood Difference

Gotta ask, where is that?

MJ


--- On Thu, 6/26/08, jjtreff <jjtreff@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: jjtreff <jjtreff@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Wood Difference
> To: ""Structural Engineers International" " <seaint@seaint.org>
> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 10:10 AM
> For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for
> someone coming from a country where only masonry and
> concrete exist, it's confusing.
>
> Structurally speaking, what's the difference between
> wood, lumber and timber?
>
> Thank you!
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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RE: Wood Difference

The one thing that I would modify is that not all timber sizes are always specified in nominal dimensions.  Some are specified in net dimensions (aka "real" dimensions).  You can see this often in the timber framing industry.  Of course, those dimensions might be when they are green timbers, so the real dimensions for in use after the timbers have reached an equilibrium moisture content in use will typically be smaller due to shrinkage.
 
And while I am no grading expert (I know enough to be dangerous), you are correct in that timbers technically must be re-graded if their length is modified.  This is due to the grading being a function of the number of knots within particular section of length...if the overall length of that member changes, then that reference length can change as well.  I don't believe that is true of lumber material (i.e. 2xs) if I recall correctly.
 
As to "naming", technically in the NDS, typical stick framing is "dimesion lumber", which is lumber that is 2" to 4" thick (nominal) and 2" (nominal) or more in width.  Then, there is "beams and stringer" lumber and "posts and timber" lumber...both of which are commonly referred to as "timbers"...both of which are 5" in each dimension or greater, but with "beams and stringers" being at least 2" wider than they are thick and "posts and timbers" being less than 2" wider than thick (i.e. "beams & stringers" are more rectangular" while "posts and timbers" are more square).  But, officially, the NDS refers to it all as lumber.  But, the common terminology is lumber for the "stick" stuff and timber for the "beefy" stuff.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
Adrian, MI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Truesdell, PE [mailto:seaint2@truesdellengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:33 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Wood Difference

In an engineering sense here in the states, a timber is any member with the smaller side equal to or greater than 5" (nominal); lumber is anything smaller. I.e. 2x12s are lumber; 4x6s are lumber, 6x6s are timber, as are 6x12s and 16x28s. Nominal sizes for lumber are 1/2" less for widths up to 6", and 3/4" less than nominal for widths above 6". Timber sizes are all 1/2" less than nominal.

More specifically, the timber engineering values are noticeably lower for a given species and grade than their lumber equivalents.  I believe that timbers are also graded as cut lengths. A 10 foot long 2x6 No.2 may be cut to any length and still be a No. 2 grade, but a 14' long 8x14 No. 2 timber which cut to 8' long must be re-graded.  Buddy or Scott may chime in here and tell me if I'm correct or not, as I don't have a reference other than the odd conversation with forgotten sources.

Clear as mud.
Jordan


Rhkratzse@aol.com wrote:
Dam little.  Wood is a very general term for the "meat" of a tree, down to toothpicks or chopsticks.  Lumber is after it's been sawn into pieces and generally means pieces used for building (as opposed to eating or picking one's teeth).  Timber is a term generally used to describe larger pieces of lumber, but may vary and isn't very specific.

HTH,

Ralph

In a message dated 6/26/08 10:11:28 AM, jjtreff@hotmail.com writes:
For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!



**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
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RE: Wood Difference

On the other hand:

 

The US appears to have a wood engineering specification (NDS) whilst Australia has a timber structures code (AS1720), both basically cover the same issues. And there is always the issue of when is a material a structure, and a structure a material? For example plywood, glulams, LVL’s, and nail plated beams could be considered more structure than material.

 

To further add to the confusion we would describe an LVL generically as manufactured timber, though the acronym stands for laminated veneer lumber.

 

So plenty of cause for confusion.

Regards

Conrad Harrison

B.Tech (mfg & mech), MIIE, gradTIEAust

mailto:sch.tectonic@bigpond.com

Adelaide

South Australia


From: D E [mailto:struktur.dle@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 27 June 2008 03:15
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Wood Difference

 

That's spot on Ralph.

On 6/26/08, Rhkratzse@aol.com <Rhkratzse@aol.com> wrote:

Dam little.  Wood is a very general term for the "meat" of a tree, down to toothpicks or chopsticks.  Lumber is after it's been sawn into pieces and generally means pieces used for building (as opposed to eating or picking one's teeth).  Timber is a term generally used to describe larger pieces of lumber, but may vary and isn't very specific.

HTH,

Ralph

In a message dated 6/26/08 10:11:28 AM, jjtreff@hotmail.com writes:

For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!



**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

 

Re: Wood Difference

In an engineering sense here in the states, a timber is any member with the smaller side equal to or greater than 5" (nominal); lumber is anything smaller. I.e. 2x12s are lumber; 4x6s are lumber, 6x6s are timber, as are 6x12s and 16x28s. Nominal sizes for lumber are 1/2" less for widths up to 6", and 3/4" less than nominal for widths above 6". Timber sizes are all 1/2" less than nominal.

More specifically, the timber engineering values are noticeably lower for a given species and grade than their lumber equivalents.  I believe that timbers are also graded as cut lengths. A 10 foot long 2x6 No.2 may be cut to any length and still be a No. 2 grade, but a 14' long 8x14 No. 2 timber which cut to 8' long must be re-graded.  Buddy or Scott may chime in here and tell me if I'm correct or not, as I don't have a reference other than the odd conversation with forgotten sources.

Clear as mud.
Jordan


Rhkratzse@aol.com wrote:
Dam little.  Wood is a very general term for the "meat" of a tree, down to toothpicks or chopsticks.  Lumber is after it's been sawn into pieces and generally means pieces used for building (as opposed to eating or picking one's teeth).  Timber is a term generally used to describe larger pieces of lumber, but may vary and isn't very specific.

HTH,

Ralph

In a message dated 6/26/08 10:11:28 AM, jjtreff@hotmail.com writes:
For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!



**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

AASHTO bridge spec

Hello,

Does anyone have the AASHTO bridge spec, or at least section 4 of it, in
digital form that I could borrow? We don't do any bridge design work in
my office, but I'm working on an advanced steel design class for my
master's degree and need the code for the final project.


many thanks,
Gordon Goodell


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Re: Wood Difference

That's spot on Ralph.

On 6/26/08, Rhkratzse@aol.com <Rhkratzse@aol.com> wrote:
Dam little.  Wood is a very general term for the "meat" of a tree, down to toothpicks or chopsticks.  Lumber is after it's been sawn into pieces and generally means pieces used for building (as opposed to eating or picking one's teeth).  Timber is a term generally used to describe larger pieces of lumber, but may vary and isn't very specific.

HTH,

Ralph

In a message dated 6/26/08 10:11:28 AM, jjtreff@hotmail.com writes:
For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!



**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Re: Wood Difference

Dam little.  Wood is a very general term for the "meat" of a tree, down to toothpicks or chopsticks.  Lumber is after it's been sawn into pieces and generally means pieces used for building (as opposed to eating or picking one's teeth).  Timber is a term generally used to describe larger pieces of lumber, but may vary and isn't very specific.

HTH,

Ralph

In a message dated 6/26/08 10:11:28 AM, jjtreff@hotmail.com writes:
For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!



**************
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Wood Difference

For most of you this might be a very basic question, but for someone coming from a country where only masonry and concrete exist, it's confusing.

Structurally speaking, what's the difference between wood, lumber and timber?

Thank you!

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R=3 Application for Non-building Structures

All,
 
We have a pipe rack that is SDC B, Ordinary Moment Frame (OMF) in the transverse and Ordinary Concentrically Brace Frame (OCBF) in the longitudinal direction. The question is can we use Table 12.2-1 (page 122) ASCE 7-05, H. STEEL SYSTEMS NOT SPECIFICALLY DETAILED FOR SEISMIC RESISTANCE, EXCLUDING CANTILEVER COLUMN SYSTEMS, R = 3 and avoid using the AISC 341 - Seismic Design Manual?
 
Table 12.2-1 (pg 122) may not be applicable for pipe rack design (non-building structure similar to building) because chapter 12 in ASCE 7-05 is designed for building application only. Therefore section H for "steel systems not specifically detailed for seismic resistance", may not be applicable.
Pipe rack is covered under Table 15.4-1 - Non-Building Structures Similar to Building, and the detailing requirements for ordinary moment frame spell out AISC 341, so special detailing is required using a R = 3.5. If the use of R=3 is allowed a section similar to section H on table 12.2-1 will be placed on Table 15.4-1? So unless we use R = 1.0 (unlimited height), we have to go by the AISC 341 with special seismic detailing.
 
Does anybody have experience on this issue before? please advise.
 
Thank you in advance.
KP
 
 


 
 
 
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Re: Getting back on listserver

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On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 7:17 PM, <lrhauer@earthlink.net> wrote:
I just swithed out to a new computer and can't seem to get listserver messages. Can you please tell me how toget back on the listserver?

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--
David Topete, SE

Wednesday, June 25, 2008

RE: Fees for Publications & Seminar

Except Scott has ignored the basis for the formation of the free software
foundation (FSF), and the GNU general public license (GPL) and free
documentation license (FDL), and other licenses such as the design science
license (DSL) and creative commons and science commons. The Copyleft
movement wasn't created by publishers it was created by creators. Creators
who without electronic distribution, typically relinquish their copyright to
the publishers. The United Nations has started using CopyLeft type licensing
on its publications, because a publication on water supply for small remote
villages and appropriate technology handbooks are pointless, if the people
who need them cannot afford them. Now NGO's can buy the publications and
copy verbatim and distribute to those who need.

Codes of Practice are mandatory and created by volunteers, and then handed
over to publishers. The publishers are profit making organizations, their
task is to maximize profits. Prices are not controlled by the cost of
production but by the value of the product to the buyer. It is the profit
that the buyer gets from the product that gives it value. To quote:

The successful producer of an article sells it for more than it cost him to
make, and that's profit. But the customer buys it only because it is worth
more to him than he pays for it, and that's his profit. No one can long make
a profit producing anything unless the customer makes a profit using it.
[Samuel B. Pettengill]

Economy of scale ignores the diversity of individuals and their available
resources, and their expectations of quality, and the differing value of
products to those individuals. People can better afford things if they
produce themselves, rather than buy low cost import. That is people in
developing countries can afford goods if they are making a living producing
goods. So copying and distributing provides them with a source of income.
The GPL doesn't require payment of royalties to the creator.

If a code of practice is mandatory then it should be readily available in a
multitude of formats, without the hindrance of copyright getting in the way
of the dissemination of knowledge. If I understand correctly the view of the
CopyLeft movement is that Copy Right has been distorted and abused, its
intent was to protect creators: it doesn't it mostly protects publishers.
Publishers can hold copy right and not publish, preventing authors from
making an income from their work. When an author uses a Copy Left license
then all persons are effectively permitted to be publishers: but each
publisher has different resources, different localities and different
markets. The FSF view is that creation may take a great deal of time and
effort, but publication doesn't, and development progresses faster by adding
to source rather than re-inventing the wheel. Copying files to disks, or
making available on servers is a minor cost. Competent computer scientists
can make living by providing real service, and such service pays for the
development of the software. They also save time by building on the
foundations of heritage.

Today most people type notes directly into a computer, they do not write on
scrap paper and have others type up. They hand the file over to others to
format. If volunteers can write the code, then volunteers can style the
code. Further more, once a code is written in say Word, or made Active in
say Exel or MathCAD, then revising is a minor activity of adding and
modifying clauses. The FSF present the view that massive and expensive
infrastructure is not required to copy and distribute electronic media.

I seem to recollect reading somewhere that the IBC was partly created
because FEMA visited disaster sites around the world, often in places where
there is no building code, the IBC provides them with a code to introduce:
provided the maps of America are pushed into a national appendix.

Now if a code of practice was distributed under the FDL or DSL, then
multiple versions would emerge, each generated by differing groups of
volunteers. But that doesn't stop the traditional organisations from
endorsing one version as the official mandated version. But the official
version only needs to be a web site with controlled source, with free
access, thus no reason for not complying with code.

At the same time other versions arise, without need for payments of
royalties, these other versions add value in some way. It could simply be by
formatting the plain text source, and producing a word document. It could be
printing to a pdf file. Or printing to paper and binding. The printed
version could be softback or hardback book. It could have large print or
small print. It could be illustrated. Or it could be embodied in software.

In other words volunteers give their time freely to create the code. But
others, without any one having a monopoly publish and distribute the code in
a diversity of forms to suit a multitude of individual needs. For example I
only need 1 page out of the Building Code of Australia (BCA) the rest of the
structural provisions are a long list of Australian standards which are
obvious. The primary users of the BCA are architects and building surveyors.
Australian standards is a non-profit organisation, with volunteers, but SAI
Global who publishes the standards is a profit making organisation. It
benefits SAI Global to keep pushing towards annual subscriptions. Some of
their electronic versions of the standards, expire after one year. The BCA
is published by the Australian Building Codes Board, and besides being
available in printed form, is available in pdf, or online. One of the online
options provides access for a low annual fee ($25(AU) I think it was), for
viewing the BCA twice in a year. The BCA is revised annually; most builders
and drafters get by without ever looking at it. Basically the BCA represents
the official stance on what most people actual already do and have been
doing for possibly centuries. It is when some new technology is introduced
that the BCA minimum performance criteria become important and need to be
viewed. Any old version of the code is suitable for getting started with
design, and then go check current version online.

The other point of the FSF is that a lot of businesses are making a lot of
money from publishing way beyond the initial development costs. Sure there
is a risk involved with publishing so initial prices are high because not
certain how many units will sell. But that is a problem of monopoly and
economy of scale: the publisher wants all the market from a single version
of a work. If it flops they stop backing the work, but the author cannot go
elsewhere, because they relinquished their copyright to the publisher. So an
author cannot try publishing say a novel in parts in a magazine or
newspaper, nor try a paperback book with a different front cover, or start
promotion in a different geographical location.

What copyleft permits, is all to publish. Thus author sells a single unit at
high price to distributor: software application or e-book. A distributor
creates fancy packaging and puts on shelfs in every supermarket. They could
consider they have added value and sell at higher unit price than author.
But all persons potentially have access to buy direct from author. So
distributor sells at lower price than author, and further each buyer in
turn, if they wish to put in the effort, can become distributor. If each in
the chain sells at half purchase price to two others, then each recovers
their costs. If they can sell to more than two others then they start making
a profit. If lower prices have larger markets, then the original distributor
eventually lowers their price to equilibrium level. That is even though it
is possible to get for free from somewhere, not all persons will have access
to such resource, and various distributors will be able to sell the product
at some suitable price.

More over, to many of the distributors what is supplied as electronic media
is relatively worthless in its own right, it is what they and others can do
with it that has value. Thus the distributor makes their real money from
supply of services associated with the electronic media, such as training
and customising to better suit the users needs.

So on the other hand architects and engineers make their living from being
able to use the IBC, BCA and other similar codes. It should be understood
that the freedom the FSF talks about is freedom to adapt and modify, not
free from fee. Charge what ever extortionate price that you are able for a
computer application, but just make the source code available so that users
can customise to better suit their needs and do not charge extortionate fees
for access to the source code: supply source code at cost of media and
postage. The customised versions may have larger markets, but at generally
lower cost than the original, the originator can acquire one copy and source
and revise own version add more value and regain market. It is all about
supplying better service. Many engineers struggle because for the most part
they only have a job because regulations created one for them: they actually
lack the ingenuity to practice as real engineers. Most of their clients
would actually prefer not to employ such services, and only do so as
regulations force them to do. Such service has low value, therefore can only
charge low fees. Or may be not, for without such service get no approval,
therefore can charge extortionate price. But for small projects can get
approval without such services, therefore low value service, low price.

In any case my point is that the knowledge in codes of practice doesn't
belong to anyone, or at least shouldn't, and it is required to be applied by
all. Compliance with can be achieved by a diversity of forms. The Copyleft
licenses don't require payment of royalties, because each user obtains
income appropriate to the value they are offering: each also has a limited
market. The creators supply at high price to small market, and distributors
at low price to large markets. Eventually all may supply at similar price.
Electronic media and intellectual property are different than most other
products, development is not all that expensive and nor is the
infrastructure to copy and distribute. I'm talking cost: not desire to be a
millionaire selling a music CD.

It is expensive to design and manufacture a computer, car, or aircraft. On
the other hand, not everyone can set up production facilities to produce
aircraft or cars. Further, most inventors don't have the financial resources
to sue for breach of their patents, or necessarily the resources to
physically manufacture in the first place. Once again it is a case of
relinquishing rights to a publisher/producer. Having financed a new factory,
don't want someone with existing factory to start copying before recover
development costs. Why build a new factory? Because existing weren't
interested until they saw product was profitable. Information is different.

The computer industry could consider people make a lot of money using
computers, therefore push the price of computers up because they are highly
valuable. But that is likely to produce a net reduction in income, not
generate more income for less effort. Finding the balance is complicated: an
experiment carried out in the real world. Information is no different in
that respect: it has value.

Regulators hold monopoly over supply of information which is mandatory to
apply, that information is extracted from the minds of volunteers.
Volunteers give code authorities the knowledge and information. These code
writers could equally well give their information to other
producer/publishers. This would create a greater diversity of forms, which
would get the intent of the codes applied. The codes could also be more
dynamic and adaptive, changing by the minute. The approving authority, as
mentioned above could adopt one of these variations and endorse as the
official version for a year or more. The objective is to ensure compliance
with the intent of the code.

By keeping the code to plain text, and releasing copyright, a diversity of
alternative published forms may result. This may increase the price of the
current form of the IBC, but other forms would be less expensive,
individuals however choose which form is of most value to them. For many the
simple plain text file would be adequate, for others a printed version may
be better.

The information or knowledge is distinct from the media on which it is
published and distributed. I think will also find: that the copyright should
apply to the presentation and media not the content.

<end of part 1 >

Regards
Conrad Harrison
B.Tech (mfg & mech), MIIE, gradTIEAust
mailto:sch.tectonic@bigpond.com
Adelaide
South Australia


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