Structural Engineering: 2009-06-21

Saturday, June 27, 2009

Re: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Stan,

The amount of water lost through say, 1/16" wide cracks at certain spacing at the time of flooding (water 2-3 ft above the top of levee) can be relatively easily estimated (I've done it recently). It is likely to be minor, comparable to amount of seepage through the levee and to the amount of rain attributable to the ground outside the wall. From this perspective, cracking of the wall does not appear to have any significant effect on "hundreds of homes."

Whatever your crack-related solution may be (including doing nothing), cracking of the concrete wall due to thermal expansion does not look like a huge problem for "hundreds of houses." The 20-ft joint spacing appears as good as anything else - justifiable, for example, by PCA "Rectangular Concrete Tanks" Figure 1-2 (#4@12" each face, they recommend smaller rebars at smaller spacing for thermal/shrinkage).

I would be more concerned about cracking due to settlement and seepage under the wall foundation (with its subsequent undermining and further settlement). But this is a totally different issue.

Have a great weekend,

V. Steve Gordin,

Registered Structural & Civil Engineer
Irvine CA

P.S. I want to thank Matthew Stuart and you, Stan, for bringing the issue of elections to this list. Without your input - as bothersome as it originally seemed to be :) - I would have never gone to the ASCE website, read whatever was available there about the two candidates, and voted. Great idea, good job. SG

----- Original Message -----

From: Stan Caldwell

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 14:58

Subject: Re: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Ralph:

The wall is a floodwall. Hundreds of homes will depend on it every 100 years or so. The expansion joints will be sealed with expandable/contractable waterstops. Hopefully, the product chosen will also be vandal-proof. Thus, at the moment, my concern is the wall itself.

Stan

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ralph Kratz <rhkratzse@aol.com> wrote:

Stan, just curious, but why are cracks a concern, whereas the potential similar-size gap in an expansion joint isn't?

Ralph Hueston Kratz
www.rhkse.com

Sent from my iPhone 3G

On Jun 26, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Stan Caldwell <stancaldwell@gmail.com> wrote:

Shrinkage of concrete during curing seems to me to be one of those fuzzy areas of structural engineering practice. Perhaps some of you can help shave the fuzz.

We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing levee. The wall will be about 300 ft. long, 12 in. thick, and 2 to 3 ft. tall. Joint spacing will be based on shrinkage, and joint width will be based on thermal expansion (101 dF in Dallas today). Back to the shrinkage problem, this is a flood protection wall so we do not want any cracks. We are thinking of 20 ft. joint spacing, but are having trouble justifying this choice, or any other, based on available literature.

Any thoughts?

Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.
HALFF Associates, Inc.
Richardson, Texas

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Re: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Ralph:

The wall is a floodwall. Hundreds of homes will depend on it every 100 years or so. The expansion joints will be sealed with expandable/contractable waterstops. Hopefully, the product chosen will also be vandal-proof. Thus, at the moment, my concern is the wall itself.

Stan

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ralph Kratz <rhkratzse@aol.com> wrote:

Stan, just curious, but why are cracks a concern, whereas the potential similar-size gap in an expansion joint isn't?

Ralph Hueston Kratz
www.rhkse.com

Sent from my iPhone 3G

On Jun 26, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Stan Caldwell <stancaldwell@gmail.com> wrote:

Shrinkage of concrete during curing seems to me to be one of those fuzzy areas of structural engineering practice. Perhaps some of you can help shave the fuzz.

We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing levee. The wall will be about 300 ft. long, 12 in. thick, and 2 to 3 ft. tall. Joint spacing will be based on shrinkage, and joint width will be based on thermal expansion (101 dF in Dallas today). Back to the shrinkage problem, this is a flood protection wall so we do not want any cracks. We are thinking of 20 ft. joint spacing, but are having trouble justifying this choice, or any other, based on available literature.

Any thoughts?

Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.
HALFF Associates, Inc.
Richardson, Texas

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Re: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Stan, just curious, but why are cracks a concern, whereas the
potential similar-size gap in an expansion joint isn't?

Ralph Hueston Kratz
www.rhkse.com

Sent from my iPhone 3G

On Jun 26, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Stan Caldwell <stancaldwell@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Shrinkage of concrete during curing seems to me to be one of those
> fuzzy areas of structural engineering practice. Perhaps some of you
> can help shave the fuzz.
>
> We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing
> levee. The wall will be about 300 ft. long, 12 in. thick, and 2 to
> 3 ft. tall. Joint spacing will be based on shrinkage, and joint
> width will be based on thermal expansion (101 dF in Dallas today).
> Back to the shrinkage problem, this is a flood protection wall so we
> do not want any cracks. We are thinking of 20 ft. joint spacing,
> but are having trouble justifying this choice, or any other, based
> on available literature.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.
> HALFF Associates, Inc.
> Richardson, Texas
>
>
>

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RE: Stainless Steel

Thanks to all on the stainless steel info.

Larry Hauer

> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:11:27 -0700
> From: lrhauer@earthlink.net
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Stainless Steel
>
> To All,
>
> I am doing a small job which is designing the footing and base plate/anchor bolts for a small water tank. The tank is horizontal and is made of stainless steel with the two saddles also being stainless steel but without holes for anchor bolts. So, I will need to weld on base plates to the bottom of the saddles.
>
> I don't have any specs for stainless steel, so can someone give me some basic specs for welding stainless steel, (fillet welds), and the ASTM designation and Fy for any type of stainless steel, (the loads are very light and will be all shear loads so I can make this pretty simple).
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Larry Hauer S.E.
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.

Re: crimping of aluminum and Stainless Steel

    Steve,
        I have a recumbent bicycle, which means that the parts are not all made like an upright bicycle. The handlebars were made from three crimped aluminum tubes. I know nothing more about the method. However, from my experience, I do not recommend it.

    Jeremy,
        AWS now has D1.8 Welding Stainless.
    HTH,
    Jim Getaz

Friday, June 26, 2009

Re: Stainless Steel

Larry,

As a starting point, the following is what we use for stainless steel
structures.

- Stainless steel plate: AISI 304 w/ No. 4 finish
- SS structural shapes: AISI 304, fy = 35 ksi
- SS bolted connections: ASTM F593, AISI 304
- SS welding rods: E308

Hope this helps.

- Jeremy

Quoting lrhauer@earthlink.net:

> To All,
>
> I am doing a small job which is designing the footing and base
> plate/anchor bolts for a small water tank. The tank is horizontal
> and is made of stainless steel with the two saddles also being
> stainless steel but without holes for anchor bolts. So, I will need
> to weld on base plates to the bottom of the saddles.
>
> I don't have any specs for stainless steel, so can someone give me
> some basic specs for welding stainless steel, (fillet welds), and
> the ASTM designation and Fy for any type of stainless steel, (the
> loads are very light and will be all shear loads so I can make this
> pretty simple).
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Larry Hauer S.E.
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> * http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> * site at: http://www.seaint.org
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>

RE: Stainless Steel

I would suggest you go to the website for the Specialty Steel Industry
of North America (www.ssina.com) ....they have free downloadable guides
which will probably give you all of the information you need for such an
application. Lincoln Electric has a stainless welding guide also that
you can download. There is a European stainless site (the name eludes
me) that has a lot of good (free) information also.

Eric R. Ober, PE, SE
Associate
Holbert Apple Associates
3423 Olney-Laytonsville Rd., Ste. 6
Olney, Maryland 20832
(301)570-1460 (Phone)
(301)570-1462 (Fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: lrhauer@earthlink.net [mailto:lrhauer@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 5:11 PM
To: SEAOC
Subject: Stainless Steel

To All,

I am doing a small job which is designing the footing and base
plate/anchor bolts for a small water tank. The tank is horizontal and is
made of stainless steel with the two saddles also being stainless steel
but without holes for anchor bolts. So, I will need to weld on base
plates to the bottom of the saddles.

I don't have any specs for stainless steel, so can someone give me some
basic specs for welding stainless steel, (fillet welds), and the ASTM
designation and Fy for any type of stainless steel, (the loads are very
light and will be all shear loads so I can make this pretty simple).

Thanks in advance,

Larry Hauer S.E.

Re: Stainless Steel

lrhauer@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> I don't have any specs for stainless steel, so can someone give me some basic specs for welding stainless steel, (fillet welds), and the ASTM designation and Fy for any type of stainless steel, (the loads are very light and will be all shear loads so I can make this pretty simple).
>
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>
Larry, I'm afraid there's a bit more to it than what you're asking.

I would suggest that you go to one of the API or AWWA design documents
for your information. And I'm not sure how you get hold of that cheaply
- if I were still working I'd send it to you from IHS, but I'm not, so...

Could be worse. Designing STRUCTURAL stainless steel is a real
adventure, as there is (or wasn't as of a couple of years ago) any U.S.
standard for it.

Stainless Steel

To All,

I am doing a small job which is designing the footing and base plate/anchor bolts for a small water tank. The tank is horizontal and is made of stainless steel with the two saddles also being stainless steel but without holes for anchor bolts. So, I will need to weld on base plates to the bottom of the saddles.

I don't have any specs for stainless steel, so can someone give me some basic specs for welding stainless steel, (fillet welds), and the ASTM designation and Fy for any type of stainless steel, (the loads are very light and will be all shear loads so I can make this pretty simple).

Thanks in advance,

Larry Hauer S.E.

Re: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Stan Caldwell wrote:
> We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing levee.
>
I think I'd go to ACI 350 "Environmental Structures." I like what
they've done to it, even more than what Chrysler did to Ricardo
Montalban's Cordoba.

It has the "look and feel" of ACI 318 rather than soft Corinthian
leather, and has plenty of stuff in there about joint sealing, etc.,
that you'll find handy.

RE: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Reference Table 7.12.2.1 in ACI 350-06, shrinkage reinf based on movement joint spacing, for liquid-containing structures. (I recommend using the Grade 40 values even if you have Grade 60 rebar.)

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: Stan Caldwell [mailto:stancaldwell@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:17 PM
To: SEAINT Listserv
Subject: Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Shrinkage of concrete during curing seems to me to be one of those fuzzy areas of structural engineering practice. Perhaps some of you can help shave the fuzz.

We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing levee. The wall will be about 300 ft. long, 12 in. thick, and 2 to 3 ft. tall. Joint spacing will be based on shrinkage, and joint width will be based on thermal expansion (101 dF in Dallas today). Back to the shrinkage problem, this is a flood protection wall so we do not want any cracks. We are thinking of 20 ft. joint spacing, but are having trouble justifying this choice, or any other, based on available literature.

Any thoughts?

Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.

HALFF Associates, Inc.

Richardson, Texas

Shrinkage of Concrete Floodwall

Shrinkage of concrete during curing seems to me to be one of those fuzzy areas of structural engineering practice. Perhaps some of you can help shave the fuzz.

We have to design a small concrete floodwall on top of an existing levee. The wall will be about 300 ft. long, 12 in. thick, and 2 to 3 ft. tall. Joint spacing will be based on shrinkage, and joint width will be based on thermal expansion (101 dF in Dallas today). Back to the shrinkage problem, this is a flood protection wall so we do not want any cracks. We are thinking of 20 ft. joint spacing, but are having trouble justifying this choice, or any other, based on available literature.

Any thoughts?

Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.

HALFF Associates, Inc.

Richardson, Texas

Fw: crimping of aluminum

Good morning,

I am looking at a piece of aluminum equipment of sizable weight. The legs are connected to the main body through CRIMPING. Being subjected to an array of forces and moments, these connections are the most responsible structural joints of the subject unit.

Evidently, such connections are being used by the industry, but how can they be structurally evaluated/justified?

Can somebody point me to any document that would provide properties for, or specify the installation of, such connections?

Thanks,

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

RE: Max. temperature for concrete

Return Receipt

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re: flexure in rods used as handrails

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Andrew Kester;PE
FN:Andrew Kester, PE
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:akester@cfl.rr.com
REV:20090626T135508Z
END:VCARD

Forgive me if this was answered already...

I am not sure I see any difference in a cable and a rod (other than some material differences) on how it will react under loading. I would think any structural member, if fully restrained (fixed) at its ends or pre-tensioned, will not go into bending, or more appropriately, the structural member (rod, cable) will not have any compressive bending stress as it will be taken up by the pre-applied tension. Sort of the opposite of pre/post tensioned concrete. This is the whole idea with cable guard rail systems, of course they cannot take any bending load, but once the load is applied the cable deflects and goes into tension (well, its already pre-tensioned). I see no difference with a rod or any structural member that is pre-tensioned. Once your rod deflects whatsoever, since it is restrained at the ends, it will go into tension. I would argue something like a large bridge cable is practically a rod anyway, the way they are fabricated with thousands of small wires tightly bound or braided together, but the same principles apply. The key with a rod would be to control deflection and prevent it from forming a hinge.

I think Harold has a lot of expertise in this area, perhaps he has a two-cents he can throw in (probably more like a couple bucks with Harold)...

I would be very irritated to have a civil engineer who admittingly does not understand the mechanics of this type of design questioning my design and wanting to see more calcs that he won't understand. I feel your pain.

I forgot your exact situation, but if the threaded rod is a handrail, make sure it meets the diameter requirements of code (for hands being able to grab onto).

Andrew Kester, P.E.
Orlando, FL

Thursday, June 25, 2009

Re: Max. temperature for concrete

95F? Any exterior concrete in Arizona gets a LOT hotter than that!

Ralph

Sent from my iPhone 3G

On Jun 25, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Kausik Dutta <kaushikd@lntecc.com> wrote:

35 deg C is the temperature concrete can withstand.

From: Bhavin Shah [mailto:bhavin.design@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 June 2009 21:17
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

"This Message and its contents is intended solely for the addressee and is proprietary.Information in this mail is for L&T Business Usage only. Any Use to other than the addressee is misuse and infringement to Proprietorship of L&T ECC.If you are not the addressee please return the mail to the sender.L&T ECC DIVISION"

RE: Max. temperature for concrete

35 deg C is the temperature concrete can withstand.

From: Bhavin Shah [mailto:bhavin.design@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 June 2009 21:17
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

"This Message and its contents is intended solely for the addressee and is proprietary.Information in this mail is for L&T Business Usage only. Any Use to other than the addressee is misuse and infringement to Proprietorship of L&T ECC.If you are not the addressee please return the mail to the sender.L&T ECC DIVISION"

RE: Anchor rod washers

AISC Design Guide 1 Table 2.3. Per DG 1 "The plate washer thicknesses shown in the table are similar to the recommendation in Design Guide 7, that the washer thickness be approximately one-third the anchor rod diameter."

Regards, Harold Sprague

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:25:20 -0800
From: dmorris@bbfm.com
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.

Re: Anchor rod washers

Thanks for the info. I knew it was in the AISC somewhere.

Michelle Motchos wrote:

Try table 14-2 in the AISC manual (13th ed).

-Michelle

From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:25 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

RE: Anchor rod washers

In case you’re unaware…a really good source of answers to questions about steel design and construction is the AISC Steel Solutions Service. This free service provides answers to technical questions usually within 24 hours. You can access the Steel Solutions Center by emailing solutions@aisc.org or calling 866.ask.aisc.

In addition, a lot of information is available in the engineering FAQ section of the AISC website (www.aisc.org).

Finally, all Engineering Journal and AISC Design Guides are available as free downloads to AISC members; plus, AISC offers all of its codes and specifications as free downloads to everyone. Visit www.aisc.org and click on ePubs/freePubs.

Scott Melnick

Vice President

American Institute of Steel Construction

One East Wacker Dr.

Suite 700

Chicago, IL 60601

312.670.8314 (tel)

312.804.1535 (cell)

melnick@aisc.org

There's always a solution in steel.

From: SGE Structural [mailto:sgordin@sgeconsulting.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:07 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Anchor rod washers

Bill,

This table may (and not necessarily will) work only for the "standard" oversize.

According to Section "Washer Requirements" (page 14-10), the washer "thickness must be suitable for the forces transferred." In my understanding, that thickness was the original question.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 14:02

Subject: RE: Anchor rod washers

Table 14-2 in AISC Manual, 13th Edition. Base plate holes are oversized, washer holes are standard size.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:25 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

Re: Anchor rod washers

Bill,

This table may (and not necessarily will) work only for the "standard" oversize.

According to Section "Washer Requirements" (page 14-10), the washer "thickness must be suitable for the forces transferred." In my understanding, that thickness was the original question.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: William.Sherman@CH2M.com

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 14:02

Subject: RE: Anchor rod washers

Table 14-2 in AISC Manual, 13th Edition. Base plate holes are oversized, washer holes are standard size.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:25 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

RE: Anchor rod washers

Table 14-2 in AISC Manual, 13th Edition. Base plate holes are oversized, washer holes are standard size.

Bill Sherman

CH2M HILL / DEN

720-286-2792

From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:25 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

RE: Anchor rod washers

Try table 14-2 in the AISC manual (13th ed).

-Michelle

From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:25 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

Re: Anchor rod washers

Roark's Formulas p.428, Case 9a, consider the interior forces/reactions at the nut diameter, the exterior forces at the hole diameter.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: Drew Morris

To: SEAINT

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 13:25

Subject: Anchor rod washers

I am trying to track down the recommended washer plate thickness for anchor rods. Typically the holes are oversized and I am trying to find the thickness for the washers. i assume it is some percentage of the rod diameter. Can anyone direct me to where i can this info?

RE: Max. temperature for concrete

http://www.sulphuric-acid.com/techmanual/Sulphur/storage.htm
http://www.corrosion.com/corroforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=387

Regards, Harold Sprague

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:16:31 +0530
Subject: Max. temperature for concrete
From: bhavin.design@gmail.com
To: seaint@seaint.org

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.

Anchor rod washers

Re: seaint spam

David Fisher wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

One o' me all-time favorites!

RE: seaint spam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

From: Bill Polhemus [mailto:bill@polhemus.cc]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:40 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: seaint spam

Bill Cain wrote:

They are going into my Spam box automatically! Don't how my email program figured that out but it is doing good!

Just FYI: My spam trap typically works well enough. Usually I'll get one or two slip through each day, out of hundreds.

However, since I put my résumé on Monster.com again, I have been absolutely DELUGED with it, and the spam trap doesn't pick it all up. I'm getting at least a dozen a day come through now, sometimes much more.

Spammers are getting smarter, there's now doubt.

Re: seaint spam

Bill Cain wrote:

They are going into my Spam box automatically! Don't how my email program figured that out but it is doing good!

Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Steve,

As it happens, you were one of the named persons in my posting of 11/3/2005. I usually delete these responses after 3 or 4 weeks; but, for some reason, I decided to save that one for future use; and today an opportunity arose.

As I recall (and the older I get the more warn out my recaller becomes) sulphur melts at about 243 degrees F, so it's not the temperature that causes the deterioration in tanks within my experience; it's the difference in temperature between the inside and outside faces of the walls and floor which causes substantial bending stresses beyond the cracking stress. but, more importantly, the most destructive element is the corrosive attack of the mixture of sulphur vapor, oxygen (from the air) and water vapor that is present in the space above the liquid surface. I've seen sulphur tanks where the concrete below the liquid level still had formwork marks even after several years of use, yet above the liquid surface the concrete was corroded away beyond the reinforcing.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: SGE Structural

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:01 PM

Subject: Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Daryl,

That would be my assessment, too.

Although beyond, say, 2" of concrete the temperatures are lower, on the surface they are high enough to start irreversible and progressive thermal deterioration.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA



----- Original Message -----

From: Daryl Richardson

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:01

Subject: Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Bevin, Tom,

        When I see the terms liquid sulphur storage, reinforced concrete tank, and crack free design used in the same paragraph my first reaction is "Ha ha ha ha ...." Please don't think I'm mocking you; I'm not.

        I responded to a request for information on storage tank design on this list on 11/3/2005, and followed up privately on 11/4/2005. These responses were very lengthy so I will not repeat them here; but I will forward them to both of you privately.

        Reinforced concrete tanks used for liquid sulphur storage lack durability to the point where, in a very few years, they can become outright dangerous, never-the-less, they remain the most practical solution to the problem of storing liquid sulphur in the short term. More to follow privately.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhavin Shah

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:46 AM

Subject: Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

RE: seaint spam

They are going into my Spam box automatically! Don't how my email program figured that out but it is doing good!
Regards,
Bill Cain, S.E.
Berkeley, CA

From: FSRahbar@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:57:29 -0400
Subject: Re: seaint spam
To: seaint@seaint.org

Me too.

Farzin S. Rahbar, SE
David C. Weiss Structural Engineer & Associates, Inc.
(818) 227-8040 Ex. 13 Fax: (818) 227-8041

In a message dated 6/24/2009 3:49:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jason@wcaeng.com writes:

I am getting them also.

Jason

From: Gordon Goodell [mailto:GordonGoodell@harmonydesigninc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:45 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: seaint spam

Over the past couple weeks I've received a couple emails from seaint-ad@seaint.org, hawking herbal supplements or some such thing. I assume this list would have no part in spamming me, but I'm wondering: does this happen to anyone else or is something cloning addresses out of my inbox?
Gordon Goodell
Alta, WY

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Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Daryl,

That would be my assessment, too.

Although beyond, say, 2" of concrete the temperatures are lower, on the surface they are high enough to start irreversible and progressive thermal deterioration.

V. Steve Gordin, SE
Irvine CA

----- Original Message -----

From: Daryl Richardson

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:01

Subject: Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Bevin, Tom,

        When I see the terms liquid sulphur storage, reinforced concrete tank, and crack free design used in the same paragraph my first reaction is "Ha ha ha ha ...." Please don't think I'm mocking you; I'm not.

        I responded to a request for information on storage tank design on this list on 11/3/2005, and followed up privately on 11/4/2005. These responses were very lengthy so I will not repeat them here; but I will forward them to both of you privately.

        Reinforced concrete tanks used for liquid sulphur storage lack durability to the point where, in a very few years, they can become outright dangerous, never-the-less, they remain the most practical solution to the problem of storing liquid sulphur in the short term. More to follow privately.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhavin Shah

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:46 AM

Subject: Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Bevin, Tom,

When I see the terms liquid sulphur storage, reinforced concrete tank, and crack free design used in the same paragraph my first reaction is "Ha ha ha ha ...." Please don't think I'm mocking you; I'm not.

I responded to a request for information on storage tank design on this list on 11/3/2005, and followed up privately on 11/4/2005. These responses were very lengthy so I will not repeat them here; but I will forward them to both of you privately.

Reinforced concrete tanks used for liquid sulphur storage lack durability to the point where, in a very few years, they can become outright dangerous, never-the-less, they remain the most practical solution to the problem of storing liquid sulphur in the short term. More to follow privately.

Regards,

H. Daryl Richardson

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhavin Shah

To: seaint@seaint.org

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:46 AM

Subject: Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks

Bhavin

RE: Moustafa

And the Jews! How can we forget the Jews?

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E.
ALLEN DESIGNS
Consulting Structural Engineers
V (949) 248-8588 • F(949) 209-2509

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Bausk [mailto:bauskas@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:56 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Moustafa

And Russians! Don't forget Russians!

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Andrew Kester<akester@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> Most racist comments come from the mouths of jackasses who think everyone
> who speaks Spanish is Puerto Rican or Mexican, all Asians are Chinese or
> Japanese, and everyone with an arabic name must be a terrorist. And
probably
> a lot of foreigners think Americans are ignorant, racist red
necks..........
>
> Andrew Kester, PE
> Orlando, FL
>
--
Alexander Bausk
http://bausk.wordpress.com/cv
Civil/Structural design & inspection engineer
CAD professional
ONILAES Lab at PSACEA
Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine
Tel. +38 068 4079692
Fax. +38 0562 470263
bauskas@gmail.com

Re: Moustafa

And Russians! Don't forget Russians!

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Andrew Kester<akester@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> Most racist comments come from the mouths of jackasses who think everyone
> who speaks Spanish is Puerto Rican or Mexican, all Asians are Chinese or
> Japanese, and everyone with an arabic name must be a terrorist. And probably
> a lot of foreigners think Americans are ignorant, racist red necks..........
>
> Andrew Kester, PE
> Orlando, FL
>
--
Alexander Bausk
http://bausk.wordpress.com/cv
Civil/Structural design & inspection engineer
CAD professional
ONILAES Lab at PSACEA
Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine
Tel. +38 068 4079692
Fax. +38 0562 470263
bauskas@gmail.com

re: Moustafa

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Andrew Kester;PE
FN:Andrew Kester, PE
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:akester@cfl.rr.com
REV:20090625T174054Z
END:VCARD

Maybe his parents knew he was destined for greatness, as Moustafa means "the chosen one" in Arabic.

Very common Arabic name, also spelled differently is an Italian and Spanish name. The founder of the Turkish empire was named Mustafa.

Gouda is my favorite Dutch cheese. His dad could be Dutch or from Belgium perhaps, since his family name is Gouda.

9-11 terrorists were Saudis, our "friends".

Most racist comments come from the mouths of jackasses who think everyone who speaks Spanish is Puerto Rican or Mexican, all Asians are Chinese or Japanese, and everyone with an arabic name must be a terrorist. And probably a lot of foreigners think Americans are ignorant, racist red necks..........

Andrew Kester, PE

Orlando, FL

Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Bhavin,

200 degree C is nearly 400 degree F so you are right at the limits. I would suggest you do two things. The first is that 200 degree C seems a little high for liquid sulphur so double check if this is really the normal operating temperature or some kind of upset temperature. The other thing you can do is perform a temperature gradient study considering the concrete and soil are very good heat sinks. You may have to work with your Mechanical Engineers for this thermal analysis. You may find that the majority of the temperature in the concrete is much lower than 200 degree C.

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor

Bhavin Shah <bhavin.design@gmail.com>
06/25/2009 09:21 AM
Please respond to seaint

To	seaint@seaint.org
cc
Subject	Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. As mentioned, after considering 5000psi concrete & silica fume, can concrete take temperature around 200 degree centigrade, without provision of any inside insulation. Reply for the same will be highly appriciated.

Thanks
Bhavin

On 6/25/09, Tom.Hunt@fluor.com <Tom.Hunt@fluor.com> wrote:

Bhavin,

There are a couple of PCA documents that indicate for non-fire related cases concrete can sustain continuous temperatures up to approximately 400 degree F. Temperatures over 500 degree F will definitely cause deterioration. ACI 349 for Nuclear Facilities takes a very conservative approach and limits concrete temperatures during normal operation to 150 degree F and 200 degree F for local areas such as wall penetrations and for accidental or short term exposure 350 degree F and 650 degree F for localized steam or water jets. For a sulphur storage pit be sure to specify a high performance concrete with minimum 5000 psi with a good mineral additive such as 7 to 10 percent silica fume.

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor

Bhavin Shah <bhavin.design@gmail.com>
06/25/2009 08:46 AM
Please respond to seaint

To	"seaint@seaint.org" <seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject	Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks
Bhavin

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Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. As mentioned, after considering 5000psi concrete & silica fume, can concrete take temperature around 200 degree centigrade, without provision of any inside insulation. Reply for the same will be highly appriciated.

Thanks

Bhavin

On 6/25/09, Tom.Hunt@fluor.com <Tom.Hunt@fluor.com> wrote:

Bhavin,

There are a couple of PCA documents that indicate for non-fire related cases concrete can sustain continuous temperatures up to approximately 400 degree F. Temperatures over 500 degree F will definitely cause deterioration. ACI 349 for Nuclear Facilities takes a very conservative approach and limits concrete temperatures during normal operation to 150 degree F and 200 degree F for local areas such as wall penetrations and for accidental or short term exposure 350 degree F and 650 degree F for localized steam or water jets. For a sulphur storage pit be sure to specify a high performance concrete with minimum 5000 psi with a good mineral additive such as 7 to 10 percent silica fume.

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor

Bhavin Shah <bhavin.design@gmail.com>
06/25/2009 08:46 AM
Please respond to seaint

To
"seaint@seaint.org" <seaint@seaint.org>

cc

Subject
Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks
Bhavin
------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------ 

Re: Max. temperature for concrete

Bhavin,

There are a couple of PCA documents that indicate for non-fire related cases concrete can sustain continuous temperatures up to approximately 400 degree F. Temperatures over 500 degree F will definitely cause deterioration. ACI 349 for Nuclear Facilities takes a very conservative approach and limits concrete temperatures during normal operation to 150 degree F and 200 degree F for local areas such as wall penetrations and for accidental or short term exposure 350 degree F and 650 degree F for localized steam or water jets. For a sulphur storage pit be sure to specify a high performance concrete with minimum 5000 psi with a good mineral additive such as 7 to 10 percent silica fume.

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor

Bhavin Shah <bhavin.design@gmail.com>
06/25/2009 08:46 AM
Please respond to seaint

To	"seaint@seaint.org" <seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject	Max. temperature for concrete

Pl. let me know that what is the maximum temperature bare concrete can withstand, in case of liqquid sulphur storage pit (concrete strength = 4000 psi, crack free design).

Thanks
Bhavin

------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------