Structural Engineering: 2009-11-15

Saturday, November 21, 2009

RE: when the levees break....

OK. Now it is Saturday, and time to heed your suggestion.

Regards, Harold Sprague

Subject: RE: when the levees break....
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:59:39 -0500
From: mStuart@cmxengineering.com
To: seaint@seaint.org

Beer you say, might I suggest Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Beer, which as far as I know you can only get it in Lexington. Snow Ghost in Whitefish, MT isn't half bad either.

From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent: Fri 11/20/2009 6:38 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: when the levees break....

The US Federal Government has sovereign immunity and may not be sued unless it is waived by consent. The Federal Tort Claims act grants limited waiver of immunity. There are many other aspects that make attorneys rich by debating them.

Regardless, sovereign immunity may be invoked at any time and could effectively shut a suit down in appeals at any point. One judge's ruling is not the end of it.

MRGO was designed in the 1950's and constructed in the 1960's. Following construction, funding was limited by Congress, Port of New Orleans, Inland Waterway Trust Fund and others for maintenance and for construction. In 1997 there was a USACE evaluation report by the Corps. http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/ihnc/EvaluationReport/ihnc_eval.htm

They only needed a half billion dollars for the work. No one authorized the effort and it was not done. If the proposed re-work had happened we might not be having this debate.

How much can be built of a half billion dollar project with zero funding?

I was part of an emergency response team that went in immediately after Katrina. I saw real corruption up close and personal. I saw a lot of ineptitude. I also saw a lot of Federal employees busting their hump to do some good at great personal risk with little gratitude. I do a lot of gratis work for the Federal government and military.

As an American have a vested interest in the success of the Federal government. My son is even serving in the US Navy. If we expect any good to come from this law suit, we are delusional. The only thing that will happen is that lawyers will get wealthy. Congress will never accept responsibility. After all, they "inherited" this problem from the other Congress. It is time we stopped using the Corps as a scape goat.

When the next big earthquake comes, we will mobilize to rescue and to aid in recovery. All Americans will be called on to help the stricken. I am sure that someone will sue the Federal Government for all of the buildings that did not get rehabbed. ...here we go again.

I need a beer.

Regards, Harold Sprague

> Subject: RE: when the levees break....
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:10:57 -0500
> From: mStuart@cmxengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
>
> I thought you couldn't sue the US government for damages in the first
> place.
>
> D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB
> Senior Project Manager
> Structural Department
> Associate
> Engineers and Consultants - CMX
> 200 Route 9
> Manalapan, NJ 07726
> 732-577-9000 (Ext. 308)
> 908-309-8657 (Cell)
> 732-298-9441 (Fax)
> mstuart@CMXEngineering.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: akester@cfl.rr.com [mailto:akester@cfl.rr.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:05 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: when the levees break....
>
> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have
> known it was inevitable.
>
> So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who
> chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.
>
> Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will
> there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held
> responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling
> nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its
> tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore
> beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or
> northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy
> productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my
> opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since
> we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...
>
> I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less
> engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.
>
> Andrew Kester, PE
> Florida
>
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Re: Quick Help

If the load is applied to the bottom flange only, the beam is unlikely to buckle sideways. However as the building code (here in Canada) does not differentiate between points of load application, I would be obliged to brace the beam laterally, based on Limit States Design. One brace in the centre will work if using 50ksi steel. However, using A36 steel, I would need 2 brace points. This last one was done rather quickly using old fashioned ASD, so don't hold me to it.
Gary

G Vishwanath wrote:

Thanks Mark and Harold for your quick response.

Yes,I inadvertently omitted to mention the span.

You both correctly guessed it as 25 feet from the BM value.

Threre is no horizontal brace to restrict the unsupported length of the compression flange.I I later got the opportunity to do the calcs.

W8x18 is confirmed as being hopelessly inadequate.

However if the beam is somehow laterally held at mid third points , it will pass muster.

I checked this out later.

Without lateral support the smallest beam that I could suggest was W12x30.

This is in response to a quick query from the field. They have a W8x18 ready which they can support on walls and they need to lift 4000 pounds just once and they don't want to spend too much money.

I have noted Mark Johnson's point also alerting me to the need to prevent rotation at the ends of beam resting on the wall.

I am advising the field staff accordingly.

Thanks once again.

Regards

Vish

Friday, November 20, 2009

RE: when the levees break....

Beer you say, might I suggest Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Beer, which as far as I know you can only get it in Lexington. Snow Ghost in Whitefish, MT isn't half bad either.

________________________________

From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope@hotmail.com]
Sent: Fri 11/20/2009 6:38 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: when the levees break....

Regards, Harold Sprague

> Subject: RE: when the levees break....
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:10:57 -0500
> From: mStuart@cmxengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
>
> I thought you couldn't sue the US government for damages in the first
> place.
>
> D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB
> Senior Project Manager
> Structural Department
> Associate
> Engineers and Consultants - CMX
> 200 Route 9
> Manalapan, NJ 07726
> 732-577-9000 (Ext. 308)
> 908-309-8657 (Cell)
> 732-298-9441 (Fax)
> mstuart@CMXEngineering.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: akester@cfl.rr.com [mailto:akester@cfl.rr.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:05 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: when the levees break....
>
> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have
> known it was inevitable.
>
> So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who
> chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.
>
> Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will
> there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held
> responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling
> nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its
> tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore
> beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or
> northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy
> productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my
> opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since
> we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...
>
> I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less
> engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.
>
> Andrew Kester, PE
> Florida
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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>
>
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Re: Can 2x6 T&G roof or floor consider to be a diaphragm?

David Merrick wrote:
> CHBC = California Historical Building Code is reserved for registered
> historical buildings that are allowed to be designed to the threshold
> of unsafe. Not recommended, if it can be avoided.
>
> David Merrick, SE
thanks. that explains it.

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Re: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

No. and it wasn't

Michel Blangy wrote:
> Where the levees designed for a direct hit by a category 5??????
>
> -Michel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl [mailto:astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:29 AM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Cc: S. Rosenthal "
> Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
> damage
>
>
> Dear Michel and Chance:
>
> If one of those 1500 people who died during the flooding that according
> to independent and highly qualified experts on levees and now according
> to a federal judge was caused by Corps of Engineers negligence, would
> you still say the same thing as you say here in a very angry tone?
>
> If the body of a victim of this flooding which was floating in the dirty
> flood waters of Ward 9 as we saw in horror on our TV screens was , God
> forbid the body of one of your family members or other loved ones, would
> you still say the things that you are saying in your post in defense of
> these irresponsible engineers?
>
> Please think about it when you are gathering around the table this
> Thanksgiving.
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards.
> "Hassan"
> Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
> UC Berkeley
>
> =========================
>
> From: "Michel Blangy" <mblangy@satco-inc.com>
> To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage
>
> ditto
>
> From: Chance, Acie [mailto:AChance@lacsd.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:34 AM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
> damage
>
>
> ....... Lets all blame the federal government for everything,
> then WE THE PEOPLE are not responsible for anything. The Corp of
> Engineers are the same as any government agency. They had requested
> funding to work on the levees but the tax payers did not want to pony up
> the money. WE THE PEOPLE do not want to pay more taxes but we want the
> government to take care of us in all things.
>
> ...........
>
>
> ==============================
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>

Re: when the levees break....

Lifted from the 1929 Kansas Joe McCoy (Memphis Minnie backing this
time)tune from 1929. Much better in the original BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_Levee_Breaks

Stuart, Matthew wrote:
>
>
>
> ♫ ♪ Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan ♫ ♪
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Polhemus [mailto:bill@polhemus.cc]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:14 PM
> To: <seaint@seaint.org>
> Subject: Re: when the levees break....
>
>
>
> But then we'd have no place to go.
>
>
>
> William L. Polhemus, Jr. P.E.
>
> Via iPhone 3G
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2009, at 12:05 PM, <akester@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would
>
> > have known it was inevitable.
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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> *
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> *
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>
>

Re: Steel roof deck attached using screws

Try Verco

-gm

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Glenn Otto <ggator1256@cox.net> wrote:

I don't know about ICC approval but United Steel Deck catalog discusses
screws along with welds. I would think screws would be acceptable if PAF's
are. The screws have a large head than many of PAF's. The PAF's sometimes
bounce rather than penetrate according to one craftsman (operator issue.)
Hilti and the Steel Stud Manufacturers have values for screws and welds for
light gage metal thicknesses to "heavy gage" steel.

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.
A Structural Engineer, P.C.
Virginia Beach, VA 23454
www.astructuralengineeronline.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:09 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Steel roof deck attached using screws

Does anyone know of a steel roof deck manufacturer (1 1/2" 18 ga) that
has ICC approval for steel deck fastened to W beams using screws? I can
find reports of decks attached with spot welds and powder actuated
fasteners.

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Re: when the levees break....

As always Harold, thank you for your perspective on this issue.

Make mine a martini....

Barry H. Welliver
bhwengineers@digis.net

From: Harold Sprague <spraguehope@hotmail.com>
Organization: http://www.seaint.org
Reply-To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:38:50 +0000
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Subject: RE: when the levees break....

The US Federal Government has sovereign immunity and may not be sued unless it is waived by consent. The Federal Tort Claims act grants limited waiver of immunity. There are many other aspects that make attorneys rich by debating them.

Regardless, sovereign immunity may be invoked at any time and could effectively shut a suit down in appeals at any point. One judge's ruling is not the end of it.

MRGO was designed in the 1950's and constructed in the 1960's. Following construction, funding was limited by Congress, Port of New Orleans, Inland Waterway Trust Fund and others for maintenance and for construction. In 1997 there was a USACE evaluation report by the Corps. http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/ihnc/EvaluationReport/ihnc_eval.htm

They only needed a half billion dollars for the work. No one authorized the effort and it was not done. If the proposed re-work had happened we might not be having this debate.

How much can be built of a half billion dollar project with zero funding?

I was part of an emergency response team that went in immediately after Katrina. I saw real corruption up close and personal. I saw a lot of ineptitude. I also saw a lot of Federal employees busting their hump to do some good at great personal risk with little gratitude. I do a lot of gratis work for the Federal government and military.

As an American have a vested interest in the success of the Federal government. My son is even serving in the US Navy.    If we expect any good to come from this law suit, we are delusional. The only thing that will happen is that lawyers will get wealthy. Congress will never accept responsibility. After all, they "inherited" this problem from the other Congress. It is time we stopped using the Corps as a scape goat.

When the next big earthquake comes, we will mobilize to rescue and to aid in recovery. All Americans will be called on to help the stricken. I am sure that someone will sue the Federal Government for all of the buildings that did not get rehabbed. ...here we go again.

I need a beer.

Regards, Harold Sprague

> Subject: RE: when the levees break....
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:10:57 -0500
> From: mStuart@cmxengineering.com
> To: seaint@seaint.org
>
> I thought you couldn't sue the US government for damages in the first
> place.
>
> D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB
> Senior Project Manager
> Structural Department
> Associate
> Engineers and Consultants - CMX
> 200 Route 9
> Manalapan, NJ 07726
> 732-577-9000 (Ext. 308)
> 908-309-8657 (Cell)
> 732-298-9441 (Fax)
> mstuart@CMXEngineering.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: akester@cfl.rr.com [mailto:akester@cfl.rr.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:05 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: when the levees break....
>
> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have
> known it was inevitable.
>
> So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who
> chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.
>
> Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will
> there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held
> responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling
> nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its
> tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore
> beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or
> northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy
> productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my
> opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since
> we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...
>
> I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less
> engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.
>
> Andrew Kester, PE
> Florida
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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> *
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> * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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RE: Steel roof deck attached using screws

I don't know about ICC approval but United Steel Deck catalog discusses
screws along with welds. I would think screws would be acceptable if PAF's
are. The screws have a large head than many of PAF's. The PAF's sometimes
bounce rather than penetrate according to one craftsman (operator issue.)
Hilti and the Steel Stud Manufacturers have values for screws and welds for
light gage metal thicknesses to "heavy gage" steel.

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.
A Structural Engineer, P.C.
Virginia Beach, VA 23454
www.astructuralengineeronline.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Morris [mailto:dmorris@bbfm.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:09 PM
To: SEAINT
Subject: Steel roof deck attached using screws

Does anyone know of a steel roof deck manufacturer (1 1/2" 18 ga) that
has ICC approval for steel deck fastened to W beams using screws? I can
find reports of decks attached with spot welds and powder actuated
fasteners.

RE: when the levees break....

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

Steel roof deck attached using screws

Re: New Orleans Levees

it's a combination of factors. The area around new Orleans and the gulf coast around the Mississippi delta is generally subsiding due to sediment compaction. The weight of sediments "squeezes" out the water and affects the grain orientation in soft sediments so the porosity decreases and the general section decreases in thickness. Also, there is a component due to the sediments loading the upper lithosphere and depressing the crust (isostasy).

The sediments are probably not building upward. The affects of levees and the dredging of the Mississippi for shipping has allowed a lot of the sediment in the river to bypass the delta and get deposited further outbound in deeper water. This sediment starvation has allowed the barrier islands to diminish if not disappear.

Here's a starter:

http://www.lacoast.gov/news/press/2003-09-11b.htm

Glenn Otto wrote:

I think I heard that either N.O. is still sinking or the mighty River sediment is building higher. Does anyone know?

Are they rebuilding in the 9^th Ward? As we used to say in Florida " I've got some low land for a low price!"

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.

A Structural Engineer, P.C.

Virginia Beach, VA 23454

www.astructuralengineeronline.com

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"

--Samuel Adams

New Orleans Levees

I think I heard that either N.O. is still sinking or the mighty River sediment is building higher. Does anyone know?

Are they rebuilding in the 9^th Ward? As we used to say in Florida " I've got some low land for a low price!"

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.

A Structural Engineer, P.C.

Virginia Beach, VA 23454

www.astructuralengineeronline.com

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"

--Samuel Adams

RE: when the levees break....

♫ ♪ Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan ♫ ♪

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Polhemus [mailto:bill@polhemus.cc]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:14 PM
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Subject: Re: when the levees break....

But then we'd have no place to go.

William L. Polhemus, Jr. P.E.

Via iPhone 3G

On Nov 20, 2009, at 12:05 PM, <akester@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would

> have known it was inevitable.

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Re: when the levees break....

But then we'd have no place to go.

William L. Polhemus, Jr. P.E.
Via iPhone 3G

On Nov 20, 2009, at 12:05 PM, <akester@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would
> have known it was inevitable.

RE: when the levees break....

I thought you couldn't sue the US government for damages in the first
place.

D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB
Senior Project Manager
Structural Department
Associate
Engineers and Consultants - CMX
200 Route 9
Manalapan, NJ 07726
732-577-9000 (Ext. 308)
908-309-8657 (Cell)
732-298-9441 (Fax)
mstuart@CMXEngineering.com

-----Original Message-----
From: akester@cfl.rr.com [mailto:akester@cfl.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:05 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: when the levees break....

If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have
known it was inevitable.

So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who
chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.

Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will
there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held
responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling
nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its
tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore
beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or
northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy
productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my
opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since
we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...

I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less
engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.

Andrew Kester, PE
Florida

when the levees break....

If we only listened to Led Zeppelin about 40 years ago, we would have known it was inevitable.

So the Army Corps should subrogate against France. It is the French who chose to settle New Orleans in the first place.

Is this one of those, pardon me for using it, "slippery slopes"? Will there not be a legal precendent now where the Corps may be held responsible for any of their other failed attempts at controlling nature? How about the entire Mississippi River and all of its tributaries? How about the senseless pumping of sand to "restore beaches" that often last only until the next tropical storm or northeaster, and in turn screw up nature's cycle and can destroy productive fish habitat not mention ruin great surfing waves (and in my opinion, we taxpayers are paying to insure beachfront property)? Since we all pay for the Army Corps, this scares me a bit...

I am not arguing against responsibility, but I have to think it was less engineer's making miscalculations and more about backhanded politics.

Andrew Kester, PE
Florida

RE: Quick Help

If you have the W shapes in the field, you might want to consider welding a channel cap the same way you would if you were designing the support for a crane.

Regards, Harold Sprague

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:28:50 -0800
From: gvshwnth@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Quick Help
To: spraguehope@hotmail.com; markajohn@yahoo.com
CC: seaint@seaint.org

Thanks Mark and Harold for your quick response.

Yes,I inadvertently omitted to mention the span.

You both correctly guessed it as 25 feet from the BM value.

Threre is no horizontal brace to restrict the unsupported length of the compression flange.I I later got the opportunity to do the calcs.

W8x18 is confirmed as being hopelessly inadequate.

However if the beam is somehow laterally held at mid third points , it will pass muster.

I checked this out later.

Without lateral support the smallest beam that I could suggest was W12x30.

This is in response to a quick query from the field. They have a W8x18 ready which they can support on walls and they need to lift 4000 pounds just once and they don't want to spend too much money.

I have noted Mark Johnson's point also alerting me to the need to prevent rotation at the ends of beam resting on the wall.

I am advising the field staff accordingly.

Thanks once again.

Regards

Vish

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

Re: Quick Help

In a message dated 11/20/09 5:29:31 AM, gvshwnth@yahoo.com writes:

This is in response to a quick query from the field. They have a W8x18 ready which they can support on walls and they need to lift 4000 pounds just once and they don't want to spend too much money.

AND they (presumably) don't want to kill anyone in the process.

Ralph

Re: Can 2x6 T&G roof or floor consider to be a diaphragm?

CHBC = California Historical Building Code is reserved for registered historical buildings that are allowed to be designed to the threshold of unsafe. Not recommended, if it can be avoided.

David Merrick, SE

RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

Where the levees designed for a direct hit by a category 5??????

-Michel

-----Original Message-----
From: Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl [mailto:astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:29 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Cc: S. Rosenthal "
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
damage

Dear Michel and Chance:

If one of those 1500 people who died during the flooding that according
to independent and highly qualified experts on levees and now according
to a federal judge was caused by Corps of Engineers negligence, would
you still say the same thing as you say here in a very angry tone?

If the body of a victim of this flooding which was floating in the dirty
flood waters of Ward 9 as we saw in horror on our TV screens was , God
forbid the body of one of your family members or other loved ones, would
you still say the things that you are saying in your post in defense of
these irresponsible engineers?

Please think about it when you are gathering around the table this
Thanksgiving.

Thank you

Regards.
"Hassan"
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
UC Berkeley

=========================

From: "Michel Blangy" <mblangy@satco-inc.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

ditto

From: Chance, Acie [mailto:AChance@lacsd.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:34 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
damage

....... Lets all blame the federal government for everything,
then WE THE PEOPLE are not responsible for anything. The Corp of
Engineers are the same as any government agency. They had requested
funding to work on the levees but the tax payers did not want to pony up
the money. WE THE PEOPLE do not want to pay more taxes but we want the
government to take care of us in all things.

...........

==============================

RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

Dear Michel and Chance:

Please think about it when you are gathering around the table this
Thanksgiving.

Thank you

Regards.
"Hassan"
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
UC Berkeley

=========================

From: "Michel Blangy" <mblangy@satco-inc.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

ditto

From: Chance, Acie [mailto:AChance@lacsd.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:34 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
damage

...........

==============================

RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

Dear Richard: For your information, according to my colleague Professor
Bea, who was heavily involved in this case, and was co-investigator of
New Orleans levee failure with Professor Seed, the factor of safety that
Corps has used in design of levees of New Orleans was 1.1 and they were
designed for Hurricane 3 not 4 which is expected there.

This was done knowingly and resulted in loss of 1500 lives. Now, we the
taxpayers will pay billions of dollars in compensation to the survivors
of the victims of this gross negligence. If the Corps had done it right,
we would have those 1500 people still alive.

As my colleague, Professor Karlene Roberts of Haas School of Business
here at UC says: "Engineers think planet earth is uninhabited". Of
course I do not believe all engineers do that but I totally agree with
her that a percentage of engineers do and when they ignore their
responsibility to public safety and protection of environment, innocent
people get killed because of failure of their design.

Fortunately, our great democracy has mechanisms in place to prevent such
criminal acts and that is the judiciary. In this case, once again,
our judicial system, protected the society from criminally negligent
engineers who try to keep their jobs or gain financially at the expense
of public safety.

Regards.
"Hassan"
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
UC Berkeley
==============================

From: Richard Calvert <RichardC@lbbe.com>
To: "seaint@seaint.org" <seaint@seaint.org>
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

...
They knew there was a problem. If you or I knew one of our structures
could fail, we certainly couldn't use the excuse "well no one was
willing to pay me to fix it" ...

===============================

RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

Dear All: If you are interested, you can find a PDF of the Final Report of the comprehensive studies of levee failure in New Orleans done by a team of 35 researchers and engineers led by my colleagues and friends Professors Ray Seed and Bob Bea. The document submitted to the National Science Foundation , which funded the study is here:

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/projects/neworleans/report/VOL_1.pdf

It is an excellent and historical work of high integrity and high quality research in the service of society to save lives.

Regards.
"Hassan"
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
UC Berkeley
==============================

Thursday, November 19, 2009

RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

From what I understand federal money had been appropriated to Louisiana
and/or New Orleans to fix the levees. The money was directed by the
local/state politicians to
"other projects" or vote buying programs. The Corps of Engineers has done
some things they regretted in the past, like the channel widening into the
Everglades, which they went back and hit "undo" years later. Politicians
are never liable for anything, so people have to sue the money sources, i.e.
federal government. I wasn't at the trial for this, I only read the
article.

I wouldn't have live in New Orleans if offered a choice because I think it
is stupid to live below sea level. They should build an overflow canal to
the Death Valley (I forgot how far below sea level it is) to balance it all.
Yeah, that's the ticket! I live in Virginia Beach where Edgar Cayce chose,
so I don't have to worry about natural disasters. North Carolina was built
to protect us in Virginia.

Glenn C. Otto, P.E.
A Structural Engineer, P.C.
Virginia Beach, VA 23454
www.astructuralengineeronline.com

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what
should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than
liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom,
go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick
the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"
--Samuel Adams

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Calvert [mailto:RichardC@lbbe.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:32 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

So wait, we left an engineering decision up to "the people?" And are you
saying that we should pay more taxes? Or, that the agency who shouldn't be
held liable, should better appropriate its funds? Kind of seems like you're
saying neither... but then how would you propose it to have been fixed?

They knew there was a problem. If you or I knew one of our structures could
fail, we certainly couldn't use the excuse "well no one was willing to pay
me to fix it" ...

And smart enough for what? people to live were there is no chance of natural
catastrophe? Where might that be?

To me this is a good thing. I imagine that politics held more weight than
safety in this situation; and that is a problem that ought to be addressed
by someone.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Blangy [mailto:mblangy@satco-inc.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:52 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood damage

ditto

-----Original Message-----
From: Chance, Acie [mailto:AChance@lacsd.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:34 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
damage

Boy this really chaps my ass. Lets all blame the federal government
for everything, then WE THE PEOPLE are not responsible for anything. The
Corp of Engineers are the same as any government agency. They had requested
funding to work on the levees but the tax payers did not want to pony up the
money. WE THE PEOPLE do not want to pay more taxes but we want the
government to take care of us in all things. I am completely amazed that
anyone with an engineering degree would blame the government for planes
hitting a building or hurricanes destroying very old levees. I am not for
giving the government more money. I am for WE THE PEOPLE being smart enough
to not live below sea level.

OK now all the liberal, socialists can take a wack at me, but WE THE
PEOPLE should take care of ourselves without looking to government to wipe
or asses.

PS: Do something besides bitching about what someone else is doing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl [mailto:astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:56 AM
To: levees@levees.org
Cc: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Federal judge rules Corps of Engineers liable for flood
damage

Dear Sandy: Thanks for all your efforts and my heartfelt congratulations
for all your efforts and the efforts of Levees.Org, the grass roots
organization that you founded and nourished so tirelessly to achieve
such a monumental victory against such a powerful organization such as
Corp. We also need to congratulate my colleagues Professors Ray Seed and
Professor Bob Bea, who also tirelessly helped your organization as well
as spoke out on these wrong doings of Corp.
I am sending a copy of this to our structural engineering forum called
Seaint (Structural Engineering Association Int. ) where we currently
having a very constructive debate among ourselves on how a small number
of engineers in our profession which I have put at only 0.01% who act in
a criminally negligent manner or are outright corrupt or both, neglect
their prime responsibility to be to provide for public safety and focus
either on preserving their jobs or simply pocketing illegitimate income
or both.

This is a great victory also for you to show how ASCE (the American
Society of Civil Engineers) in a morally corrupt manner entered the
picture right after Katrina and instead of investigating failure of
levees on behalf of its members in an objective manner, exonerated the
Corp of Engineers from any wrong doing. The same thing that ASCE did
after the collapse of World Trade Center, when it took FEMA (Taxpayer's
) money and put the top officer of the firm (Skilling Ward Magnusson
Barkshire , now Magnusson Klemencic Associates), Jon Magnusson, and the
wife of Structural Engineer , Leslie E. Robertson , who was the
structural engineer of the record on the Building Performance Assessment
Team to investigate why WTC towers collapsed. Of course to no surprise,
the ASCE/FEMA report
(http://www.civil.columbia.edu/ce4210/FEMA_403CD/html/pdfs/403_cover-toc.pdf
)
falsely stated that there was no structural problem with the design of
the WTC where there were countless violation of design code and
practice of structural engineering including the use of "steel bearing
walls" as the structural system and the use of steel truss joists in
floors of a very tall skyscraper.

As Sally Regenhardt ,our mutual friend and the founder of Skyscraper
Safety Campaign (www.skyscrapersafety.org) which campaigns for safe
skyscrapers since the collapse of WTC towers, has in all of her e-mails:

*/"Let us not grow tired in doing good.
For at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
Galatians 6:9/*/
**
/I hope one day ASCE and the structural engineers who designed WTC as
well as ASCE and its officers who initiated a cover-up to exonerate The
structural engineering firm as well as the structural engineer of the
record from any wrong doing or even a minor negligence will be brought
before a judge as well.

Sally, if you come to Berkeley, you should give a talk here at our Law
School. You are the true American bringing out one of the things that
makes this country so great: "Justice for All"

With best wishes and please relay my very best congratulations to all in
Levees.Org

"Hassan"

Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh
=======================================================
Levees.Org wrote:
> Levees.Org
>
> November
> 19, 2009
>
> Dear Hassan
>
> Federal Judge Stanwood Duval ruled late Wednesday that the Army Corps
> of Engineers' mismanagement of the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet was
> directly responsible for flood damage of homes in St. Bernard Parish
> and the Lower 9th Ward of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.
>
> The New York Times wrote "It was the first time that the government
> has been held liable for any of the flooding that inundated the New
> Orleans area after Aug. 29, 2005, vindicating the long-held contention
> of many in the region that the flooding was far more than an act of God."
>
> Plaintiff attorneys Joe Bruno and Pierce O'Donnell said they expect to
> travel to Washington, D.C., as early as next week to try to convince
> members of the administration of President Barack Obama and members of
> Congress to consider revisiting requests for compensation by New
> Orleans-area residents in both the areas covered by the decision and
> in other areas flooded by corps-related failures of levees.
>
> The corps allowed the channel to attack the levees in three ways,
> Duval said, allowing the levees to slump under their own weight,
> failing to armor the channel's banks against ship wakes and allowing
> saltwater to exacerbate the loss of wetlands throughout the area.
>
> Check in with Levees.org's website for updates.
>
> Thank you for supporting Levees.org.
>
> We are winning.
>
> Sandy Rosenthal
> Founder, Levees.org
>
>
>
> Click here for the NYTimes story.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/us/19orleans.html?_r=2
>
<http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=YRiy43aQ5mKus8pI8juflFG
sOWZP7UkR>
>
> You can see the judgement and opinion here.
> http://www.wwltv.com/news/Federal-court--70421627.html
>
<http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=gVLwcA9xJz9kNgyOtw0IklG
sOWZP7UkR>
>
> New York Chapter
> bhschaffer@levees.org
>
> California Chapter
> kc.costa@levees.org
>
> Florida Chapter
> DrLevine@levees.org
>
> Illinois Chapter
> derbes@levees.org
>
> Oregon Chapter
> Oregon@levees.org
>
> Launching soon: Chapter in Connecticut
>
>
> Follow us on Twitter! http://twitter.com/LeveesOrg
>
<http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=ZcKMpfDR0lSsegL3VxNrjVG
sOWZP7UkR>
>
>
>

COM.Geo 2010 (Computing for Geospatial) Washington, DC - Call for Submissions

=================================================
COM.Geo 2010
http://www.com-geo.org

1st International Conference and Exhibition on Computing for Geospatial
8-11 June 2010 Washington, DC
=================================================

The explosion of computing driven location based applications in the past
few years has revolutionized the way we live and work. COM.Geo is an
international conference and exhibition on computing for geospatial, which
focuses on the latest computing technologies for multidisciplinary research
and development that enables the exploration in geospatial. COM.Geo is
an exclusive event that connects researchers, developers, scientists, and
application users in both computing and geospatial fields.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
COM.Geo 2010 Conference Spotlight: Cloud Computing and Geospatial
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS

COM.Geo is a leading-edge conference for computing for geospatial. We
invite you to submit research or application papers, tech talks, and special
sessions, to organize courses and workshops. Suggested topics include all
computing, geospatial, and applications. The complete details are at:
http://www.com-geo.org.

Papers
--------
This program includes full or short papers. Both can address research or
application work.

Courses
---------
Courses can be proposed by scholars or company representatives. A
Courses Program will share the very best of computing for geospatial
technologies, such as cloud computing for geospatial, business intelligence
& GIS, Web GIS, mobile GIS, etc.

Tech Talks
-----------
These are work in progress, late-breaking research, emerging technologies,
case studies, development techniques, student projects, and exhibitior
technical talks. Either a regular abstract or an extended abstract can be
submitted.

Invited Sessions
----------------
Invited sessions offer focused discussions on specialized topics in Papers
Programs. They can be organized in a specific or a general theme. Proposals
are required to submit.

Workshops
------------
Workshop proposals are solicited for COM.Geo 2010 in Washington, DC.

IMPORTANT SUBMISSION DEADLINES

Full and Short Papers: February 19, 2010, 11:59 PM EST
Courses Proposal: February 19, 2010
Tech Talks Abstract: March 22, 2010, 11:59 PM EST
Invited Sessions Proposal: January 25, 2009
Workshops: Proposal: January 25, 2009