Friday, January 2, 2009

Standard concrete footing and soil recompaction question

What is the recommended time (minimum) required before a spread footing placed below grade with only a partial pier rising above grade to support an embedded column be cured before the contractor can recompact the soil. I specified a minimum of seven days but the concrete sub wanted to compact new soil around the sonotube pier and over a spread footing located about 18-inches below grade. I am in the desert, and the soil is sand and silty sand. The weather has been dry but my concern is that do not want to induce any cracking in the concrete that is curing or force any to spall by the contractor who is backfilling (top filling) to bottom of asphalt. I stood my ground on seven days unless the contactor wants to pull a core for compaction testing on the concrete at time of soil compaction above. Any other thoughts on this one?

Happy New Year
 
Dennis S. Wish, PE
California Professional Engineer
Structural Engineering Consultant

Happy new year.

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Thursday, January 1, 2009

RE: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Jeff, Joe,
 
Tell me you are not using trig.
 
The pressure coefficients for building shapes are worked out on the basis of the extreme value within a quadrant, to give the worst case for bending moment, shear etc...
 
For the site, there are 8 compass directions for the wind, each of these can have different kz, kzt etc.., using AS1170.2 I can also effectively have different Vb. The rectangular building has two orthogonal axes. The building is located correctly with respect to the compass directions. The maximum wind speed (Vz for AS1170.2 users, ASCE7-05 users have to calculate qz) from the compass/cardinal direction within the quadrant for the orthogonal axis becomes the wind speed (or qz) for that direction. Thus only have winds along orthogonal axes normal to faces of the building for design purposes.
 
Once got the the values of (Vz or qz as the case may be), then loads are simply based on winds along orthogonal axes normal or parallel to faces of building. So far I have never loaded the building at 45 degrees to the axis of the building: drag forces on open frames being an exception.
 
{And just recieved SRSS}  I don't believe that is necessary. And for a rectangle isn't that the length of the diagonal, so what is Joe doing for the short side: taking half the length of the long side?
 
 
regards
 
Conrad
 

RE: Wind Load Topographic Effects

I am assuming that in Joes example he was referring to the square root of the sum of the squares (SRSS). So the SRSS of the 20' and 40' sides is 44.72'.
Jeff

From: Conrad Harrison [mailto:metamorphs96@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:11 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: RE: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Jeff,
 
What does SRSS refer to? IBC and ASCE7 are not the codes I use. I just interpret on basis of similarities to codes I do use and the parts I have read thus far.
 
So could you give me a more direct reference.
 
regards
 
Conrad.
 
 

Re: C & C vs MWFRS

Andrew,
 
Point taken. From my perspective the critical issues are proper determination of:
 
1) qz the reference pressure
2) internal pressure coefficient Cpi.
 
Ignoring the gust factor: assume equals 1 for simplicity. Then net pressure coefficient Cpn=Cpe-Cpi. Reference to Fig6-6 for Cp.
Indicates if get a hole in the roof of a house then the internal pressure coefficient could  rise to -0.9, greater in magnitude than the -0.55 for partially enclosed, and G.Cpi=0, for open. Combined with windward wall Cp=+0.8, then have high probability of loosing wall if the building was designed for G.Cpi=-0.18.
 
In similar manner if the windward wall pressure removes doors or windows, then internal pressure coefficient will rise to +0.8 rather than the +0.55 or +0.18, and certainly not 0 for open. Adopting the appropriate value of Cpi for a given state of the building at the time of a given wind condition is the critical issue. For serviceability level winds speeds (or loads if thats where adjustment is made), then assuming the building is sealed may be appropriate. But as the wind speed increases, the chances of maintaining the seal during a hurricane or tornado diminishes: higher internal pressure coefficients should be adopted. Though assuming building is open at serviceability loads is not a big issue. (Here we define the serviceability conditions: not the code.)
 
Also the hurricane is likely to clear trees and other small obstructions which influence surface roughness, so adopting exposure C to push qz upwards may be more realistic. That is for serviceability adopt exposure B and for strength adopt exposure C. The issue is that to limit state design, there is no doubt the building does not survive the ultimate strength loading in a state which could be considered an habitable dwelling. The building only survives serviceability loads and remains habitable and serviceable. Using limit state design we can push ultimate loads upwards without necessarily increasing the traditional size of anything, we otherwise refine our definitions of serviceability states (more than 1 and each has different expectations of performance).
 
I agree strengthening the connections is not a big deal: costs are relative: builders who complain tend to be the ones who don't cost accurately and want to do the least amount of work.
 
My issue is that ASCE7-05 seems highly prescriptive, and using the C&C pressures is not conservative if other parameters are inappropriate.
 
Just curious but it seems each and every year, that a township in the USA is flattened by a tornado. Are those stick dwellings engineered to IBC/ASCE7, or engineered to the WFCM or seIected form IRC prescriptions? Presciptions which many list members seem to have suggested don't comply with the engineering codes.
 
It seems to me that the use of IRC should be dependent on the calculation of qz, and GCpi, if these are of appropriate magnitude then the IRC presciption can be used: if not then need to engineer or need additional prescriptions available. For those who are always looking up pressures (p), qz varies between sites and pressure coefficients (Cp) are constant for a given building shape. So at the simplest only need to calculate qz for a building/site combination to select a prescriptive solution. In such manner the failure rate of conventional construction can be reduced by increasing the restriction on its use, and adding more pre-engineered solutions.
 
My point is make sure qz, and Cpi are appropriate before arguing whether a failure is due to inappropriate use of MWFRS pressures and C&C pressures. For qz and Cpi are more likely to be the crtical issue responsible for the failure.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 
 
 
 

 

RE: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Jeff,
 
What does SRSS refer to? IBC and ASCE7 are not the codes I use. I just interpret on basis of similarities to codes I do use and the parts I have read thus far.
 
So could you give me a more direct reference.
 
regards
 
Conrad.
 
 

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Jeff
 
Use a topographic map, to get spot heights and contours, draw a profile of the hill, and find the local level plains. Lh and H seem reasonably clear from Fig6-4.
 
Avoid method 1, it is derived from method 2, and its limitations are really dependent on understanding method 2. Therefore better to simplify method 2 yourself.
 
Trees and forests are not really obstructions they may be removed. Though may consider their influence on determining surface roughness which is considered by exposure category. The commentary provides a means of exposure averaging, and such is dependent on averaging distance. Beneficial if want something between exposure C and B, rather than opting for C.
 
 As for 1 and 2 of section 6.5.7.1:
 
I read 1 as defining isolation of the hill. If in a mountain range then there may be higher mountains behind or infront, if more than 2 miles away then their influence to obstruct wind flow is not significant, if near by wind flow will be changed.
 
Item 2 I read has a reference to undulating surface. A hill may not simply rise, but have a series of rises and dips until reach the very peak. These small upwind peaks may obstruct wind flow. If the highest peak of the rising hill is more than 2 miles away then its influence on increasing wind speed is not as great.
 
These two items basically answer the question as to when the hill relative to the location of the building is not a hill. Basically wind speed increases with increasing height away from surface roughness. More obvious using AS1170.2 since we apply equivalent of kz, kzt to the wind speed Vb to get a design wind speed Vz, then calculate qz.
 
For a very large and slowly rising hill, the wind is effectively flowing over flat land. But for a steep rising hill there is a rapid change in wind speed. For small surrounding undulating hills, then have more affect on selection of exposure category, influencing surface roughness. It is largely a judgement call influencing the magnitude of the reference pressure qz. Steep hills and wind can cause a lot of problems, like double balcony doors which won't stay put and leak rain. So if have a real hill then do want qz high.
 
 
regards
 
Conrad
 
 
 

RE: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Quartering winds, SRSS.
Jeff


From: Conrad Harrison [mailto:metamorphs96@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:20 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Sorry Joe! I'm lost. Which clauses give rise to changing the building dimensions?
 
My understanding is have (ASCE7):
 
L = downwind or along wind dimension of building (d for AS1170.2 users)
B = across wind dimension of the building (b for AS1170.2 users)
z = reference height
a = extent of edge zones
 
The reference height varies:
h = building reference height
z=h=he = height to eaves
z=h=ht = height to top/ridge
z=h=h[avg]= average height

Only really need to refer to qz and define z as appropriate.
 
L & B being relative to direction of wind, are not locked to any given building dimension.
 
The load on a surface should be based on the actual area of that surface.  Though ASCE7 permits using 1/3rd of span when selecting C&C pressure coefficients and calculating effective wind area, rather than actual load width of the element. Once pressure coefficient determined however the actual area should be used.
 
So I don't follow where the increase in length comes from.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Sorry Joe! I'm lost. Which clauses give rise to changing the building dimensions?
 
My understanding is have (ASCE7):
 
L = downwind or along wind dimension of building (d for AS1170.2 users)
B = across wind dimension of the building (b for AS1170.2 users)
z = reference height
a = extent of edge zones
 
The reference height varies:
h = building reference height
z=h=he = height to eaves
z=h=ht = height to top/ridge
z=h=h[avg]= average height

Only really need to refer to qz and define z as appropriate.
 
L & B being relative to direction of wind, are not locked to any given building dimension.
 
The load on a surface should be based on the actual area of that surface.  Though ASCE7 permits using 1/3rd of span when selecting C&C pressure coefficients and calculating effective wind area, rather than actual load width of the element. Once pressure coefficient determined however the actual area should be used.
 
So I don't follow where the increase in length comes from.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 

Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Conrad
 
Now the tough question if you have a rectangular building say 20 x 40ft.  When you calculate the wind load for the long side do you use 40' or 44.7' ??   Then what is length for the short side 20' or 28.3' ??
 
I am not sure for short direction. any ideas ?
 
Joe Venuti
Johnson & Nielsen Associates
Palm Springs, CA
 
In a message dated 12/30/2008 9:35:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, metamorphs96@gmail.com writes:
My Understanding is that the quadrant is 90 degrees. But need to draw two orthogonal axes for the building, and 8 cardinal/compass directions for the wind. The 4 orthogonal directions then experience the maximum wind in the quadrant defined by 45 degrees either side of the orthogonal axis.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 


 



FL PE Board

While we are on the subject of the FL PE Board, I have heard through the grape vine that the Governor is planning on passing some legislation in the next session that will dramatically change some of the FL PE rules.

 

Any truth to the rumors?

 

D. Matthew Stuart, P.E., S.E., F.ASCE, SECB

Senior Project Manager

Structural Department

Associate

Engineers and Consultants - CMX

200 Route 9

Manalapan, NJ 07726

732-577-9000 (Ext. 1285)

908-309-8657 (Cell)

732-298-9441 (Fax)

mstuart@CMXEngineering.com

 

 

re: C & C vs MWFRS

Conrad,

I understand what you are saying from your perspective, but maybe I was not clearly stating the facts.

 

This was an actual case where the Florida Board had several counts (charges) against an engineer. One of the counts was for not considering C and C loading on roof members and their connections. Since I have never seen any MWFRS loading that would be greater than a C and C loading, the latter would always govern. I understand that with larger trib areas like 500sf they begin to converge. I am simply stating what was an official ruling by the FL Board of Engineers as to what loading should be considered. This was not a disagreement with a building official, of which we have nearly no interaction, nor do we submit calculations to the bldg department though we are required to provide wind loading info on our drawings (and provide pressure tables if there are elements to be designed by others). I don’t think the average building official here knows any differences between the two anyway, you could likely use whatever you wanted as long as you seal the drawings. The responsibility falls upon you to do it the “right way”, which according to the Board is C and C.

 

To me the difference between the two is hardly worth arguing or discussing anyway unless we are talking a major structure or something design that will be used hundreds of times. With very large structures they usually use wind tunnel pressures anyway. I know I have always designed roof members and connections as C and C as well as any other FL engineer I have worked with or talked to, but I have read yours and others arguments on the subject so understand your viewpoints. There have been some great theoretical discussions. But as I have seen many failures after hurricanes and thunderstorms at connections of wood trusses particularly, a slight amount of overdesign of a roof structure and the connections is a small price to pay (if it were allowed) to go with a slightly larger uplift pressure. Roof members and their connections, particularly trusses and uplift straps, are a very small percentage of the cost of your average home or small commercial building. They will spend way more on the kitchen then the whole roof….

 

Happy New Year to all!

 

Andrew Kester, PE

Orlando, FL

 

Happy new year.

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Happy new year.

Dear all

                Wish you a happy & Prospers new year-2009.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Arun Kumar C,

Junior Engineer,

Unity Strucutral Engineering Design services,

Tel. 044-42695760,

Mobile: 9442018380,

E-mail: <carunkumar@unity-usa.com>

 

happy new year

Dear all,

                Wish you a happy and prospers  new year.

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

ARUNKUMAR  C

 

 

Great power comes with great responsibilities.

 

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Seems Conrad is on top of it !


From: Conrad Harrison <metamorphs96@gmail.com>
To: seaint@seaint.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:22:04 PM
Subject: Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

My Understanding is that the quadrant is 90 degrees. But need to draw two orthogonal axes for the building, and 8 cardinal/compass directions for the wind. The 4 orthogonal directions then experience the maximum wind in the quadrant defined by 45 degrees either side of the orthogonal axis.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 


 

Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Re: component and cladding vs MWFRS

Andrew,
 
It is still a matter of interpretation of ASCE7, and how well the engineer is capable of justifying their case to the building officials. Part of the key in the phrase is the word "also", it also implies design to MWFRS pressures. The structure has to be assessed for the appropriate loads and under the appropriate conditions. The statement is more of a warning not to ignore the C&C pressures, and to explicitly dismiss them if not considered relevant. If use the pressure coefficients will probably notice as effective area increases the C&C pressure coefficients drop, getting closer and closer to the MWFRS pressure coefficients. The more effort put into using the code the and assessing wind loading, the lower the wind load can be dropped to keep traditionalists happy, and strength can be provided where actually needed to minimise expense.
 
Here cyclone Tracy demonstrated that the traditional construction of roofs held together, since entire roofs were picked up and dropped on the floor beside the house. So getting adequate tie-down is important. Understanding the tributary area of the isolated building element is important to developing economic solutions. But more cost for engineering to reduce resistance is not entirely sensible, so engineering effort is dependent on the nature of the project and the economy which can be achieved.
 
Just suggesting that if builders/owners give you a hard time over high expense, then worth taking a lot closer look at what is achievable, rather than simply going along with potentially over conservative views of local building officials.
 
Also heres an idea, the more simplistic your calculations, then the easier for the least experienced building official to review your work. The more complex your calculations, then the greater the need for the most experienced building official to review your work, to the extent the calculations have to be sent out to be reviewed by another engineer. The code and commentary permit rational design using recognised texts, papers and references. The code is just a guide, with an origin in learned opinion, make use of the papers the commentary references. The more evidence presented to support your case, the more difficult it is for building officials to find a reason to reject your proposal. And evidence is what it is all about.
 
 
Regards
Conrad
 
PS: best wishes for the new year.

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

My Understanding is that the quadrant is 90 degrees. But need to draw two orthogonal axes for the building, and 8 cardinal/compass directions for the wind. The 4 orthogonal directions then experience the maximum wind in the quadrant defined by 45 degrees either side of the orthogonal axis.
 
Regards
 
Conrad
 


 

Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

Refugio
 
Was that interpreted to be  360/4 =90 degrees or 180/4 =45 degrees ??
 
Joe Venuti
Johnson & Nielsen Associates
Palm Springs, CA
 
In a message dated 12/30/2008 2:58:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, refugio311@yahoo.com writes:
We had a debate in hurricane region in the Caribbean, and had to call in one of the experts who worked on the code to decipher our dispute.  It turned out that the key word for discerning the affect of a region of wind flow is "quadrant" which is indeed a fourth of the area which is open to wind flow !


From: Jeff Smith <jeffsmith7@comcast.net>
To: seaint@seaint.org
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 12:22:36 PM
Subject: Wind Load Topographic Effects

I hope my wind questions are not wearing on the list. I am trying to
interpret section 6.5.7 Topographic Effects.

Mean Height exceeds least horiz dimension therefore use Method 2.

Considering a 20' square by 35 foot tall enclosed structure located about
50' downhill from a relatively level area (escarpment)at the top of a hill.
The downhill slope is about 3 to 1 and is generally open grasses for an area
about 200 feet wide and about 800 feet down the hill. Surrounding this open
area are dense tall redwood trees. I do not know the topography at the
bottom of the hill beyond the redwoods, however the slope does continued
down into the forested area, but where it levels off I do not know.

I am confused by items 1 and 2 of section 6.5.7.1

Is the hill considered to be obstructed by the large trees on the sides of
the open area and 800 feet down the hill?
How do I determine H and Ln?
At what point is the hill no longer a hill?

From a first pass I get ranges of Kzt of 2.54 for a 2 diminesional ridge,
1.85 for a 2-D escarpment. But if section 6.5.7.1 does not apply it would be
1.0.

Happy New Year.

Jeff









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Re: Wind Load Topographic Effects

We had a debate in hurricane region in the Caribbean, and had to call in one of the experts who worked on the code to decipher our dispute.  It turned out that the key word for discerning the affect of a region of wind flow is "quadrant" which is indeed a fourth of the area which is open to wind flow !


From: Jeff Smith <jeffsmith7@comcast.net>
To: seaint@seaint.org
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 12:22:36 PM
Subject: Wind Load Topographic Effects

I hope my wind questions are not wearing on the list. I am trying to
interpret section 6.5.7 Topographic Effects.

Mean Height exceeds least horiz dimension therefore use Method 2.

Considering a 20' square by 35 foot tall enclosed structure located about
50' downhill from a relatively level area (escarpment)at the top of a hill.
The downhill slope is about 3 to 1 and is generally open grasses for an area
about 200 feet wide and about 800 feet down the hill. Surrounding this open
area are dense tall redwood trees. I do not know the topography at the
bottom of the hill beyond the redwoods, however the slope does continued
down into the forested area, but where it levels off I do not know.

I am confused by items 1 and 2 of section 6.5.7.1

Is the hill considered to be obstructed by the large trees on the sides of
the open area and 800 feet down the hill?
How do I determine H and Ln?
At what point is the hill no longer a hill?

From a first pass I get ranges of Kzt of 2.54 for a 2 diminesional ridge,
1.85 for a 2-D escarpment. But if section 6.5.7.1 does not apply it would be
1.0.

Happy New Year.

Jeff









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component and cladding vs MWFRS

Not to start a long-“winded” discussion on this subject, as it has been discussed and argued ad nauseam on the list before, but I thought I would share this info I just came across.

 

I am working on some required CEUs for my Florida PE, and in the course they do a case study and one of the items the engineer got in trouble for was related to the wind loading for roof members, “Components such as roof framing members and their connections must also be designed for ‘Component and Cladding Wind Loads’.”

 

So we can academically or theoretically have lots of discussions on the subject, but it is pretty clear how the Florida Board is interpreting this issue.

 

Regards and happy holidays!

Andrew Kester, PE

Orlando, FL

 

 

 

 

Re: Removal of formwork for Vertical member


Nittsi,

Removal of formwork can vary depending on your concrete mix design (i.e. concrete strength, cement type, admixtures - accelerators or retarders, etc.), ambient curing temperatures, thickness of members, and member purpose (i.e. loading/support conditions).  A good reference is ACI 347, "Guide to Formwork for Concrete", which recommends that for columns with a normal concrete mix and curing temperatures above 50 degree F you may be able to remove your forms after 12 hours.  You may also need to specify a minimum concrete strength based on field cured specimens.

Thomas Hunt, S.E.
Fluor



"Nittsi" <nitin26nagar@rediffmail.com>
12/30/2008 07:44 AM
Please respond to seaint
To
<seaint@seaint.org>
cc
Subject
Removal of formwork for Vertical member





Dear All,

I would like to know after concreting how much minimum duration required for removing the formowrk for vertical members.


Regards,
Nitin Nagar
Rediff Shopping


------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person  or entity to which it is addressed and may contain  proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material.   If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are  hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination,  distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon  this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please  contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.   ------------------------------------------------------------ 

Removal of formwork for Vertical member

Dear All,

I would like to know after concreting how much minimum duration required for removing the formowrk for vertical members.


Regards,
Nitin Nagar
Rediff Shopping

Monday, December 29, 2008

Wind Load Topographic Effects

I hope my wind questions are not wearing on the list. I am trying to
interpret section 6.5.7 Topographic Effects.

Mean Height exceeds least horiz dimension therefore use Method 2.

Considering a 20' square by 35 foot tall enclosed structure located about
50' downhill from a relatively level area (escarpment)at the top of a hill.
The downhill slope is about 3 to 1 and is generally open grasses for an area
about 200 feet wide and about 800 feet down the hill. Surrounding this open
area are dense tall redwood trees. I do not know the topography at the
bottom of the hill beyond the redwoods, however the slope does continued
down into the forested area, but where it levels off I do not know.

I am confused by items 1 and 2 of section 6.5.7.1

Is the hill considered to be obstructed by the large trees on the sides of
the open area and 800 feet down the hill?
How do I determine H and Ln?
At what point is the hill no longer a hill?

From a first pass I get ranges of Kzt of 2.54 for a 2 diminesional ridge,
1.85 for a 2-D escarpment. But if section 6.5.7.1 does not apply it would be
1.0.

Happy New Year.

Jeff

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RE: Reindeer live load

The amount of time Santa spends at each individual house has been covered and is on the order micro-seconds....I would use Cd = 1,000, personally. You are covered in my opinion.
 
> don't forget the temporary loading, hence Cd = 1.25
-----Original Message-----
From: David Topete [mailto:d.topete73@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 4:19 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: Reindeer live load

Remember, the load is spread across the rails of the sleigh.  Also, don't forget the temporary loading, hence Cd = 1.25. 
 
Pretty soon, every roof will be "green," and roof LL will be 100 psf minimum...  Yay!

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:24 PM, <erik_g@cox.net> wrote:
Holy crap, I just realized that the 40psf for residential roof LL is not
sufficient for Santa. Since he will be loaded down w/ presents and all the
big reindeer and stuff.

I think we should lobby to have the LL changed to 60 psf for roof LL.


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--
David Topete, SE

Sunday, December 28, 2008

HNY2009

Seasons Greeting and Best Wishes for a Healthy, Peaceful, Joy filled, and Prosperous New Year -2009.

May the Almighty fulfill all your dreams & bestow success on you this New Year.

Best Regards,

Lakshmana RK Nukala & Family,

Ph: +974-4732633 / 5778637