Saturday, October 6, 2007

Interior Door Forces

  My client, who is supplying interior doors for a Hong Kong convention center, has received a specification from their Chinese distributors of the required lateral forces. I reviewed their calculations and have deciphered a wind force of 11 psf and another load of the equivalent of 28 psf (possibly a seismic load). Reference is made to a "Hong Kong Steel Code clause 2.5.8"

  Since these doors typically weigh between 8 to 10 psf, that would mean a seismic factor of 2.8 times the weight, assuming this is a seismic load. This seems very high, but 28 psf is also a very high interior wind load even in a pressurized building.

  Any thoughts on an appropriate interior load, wind or otherwise? What would our Codes require for a seismic factor on a door hung from the ceiling framing, short of a dynamic analysis of the whole building and this "bell clapper" door?

Charles Laines, S.E.

Long Beach, CA





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Re: 8" Columns

Dear Gerard,
 
    I agree with your reply but can one not use a smaller diameter rebar say 3/8" for main and 1/4" for ties but a higher fy say 60 or even 75 ksi although a composite section would probably be more economical. I am asking this because I have considered using pre-cast concrete structural members for residential houses.
 
   Thanks for your reply.
 
Alex
 
  
 
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: 8" Columns

But it's higher E doesn't offset the geometric reductions in I, S, Z, r, J, etc...and would not be as strong as a 3000psi 12"x12" for most failure modes except possible pure axial compression (depending on the unbraced length) and shear.

f`c has very little to do with capacity for flexure or beam-column elements when even a slight eccentric axial load is applied. Slenderness governs most capacity checks in column design.

Why not use a TS filled or encased in concrete instead?

Also, but the time you radius the ties and clear cover requirements, the bars are so close together your d is virtually nothing.

-g

On 10/5/07, Alex C. Nacionales <anacionales@insightts.net> wrote:
David,

    8"x8" RC columns with Fc'=10000psi has more
compressive strength than a 3000 psi 12"x12" column.
The 8" column would be more expensive i am sure but Architects sometimes
limits dimesions for aesthetic reasons.

Alex C. Nacionales


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fisher" <dfisher@fpse.com>
To: < seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: 8" Columns


> 8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"
>
> Not much section left!
>
> I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher SE PE
> Senior Director
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
> Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
> 372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
> 75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
> 319 A Street Boston 02210
>
>
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 facsimile
> 312.622.0409 mobile
>
> www.ccgch.com
> www.fpse.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: refugio rochin [mailto: fugeeo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: 8" Columns
>
> That is not true.  ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
> members of special moment frames.
> ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
> by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
> dimensions.
>
> I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
> member that has to accept seismic displacements?  Is there any
> research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
> displacements, and their strength capacities?  I do not want to design
> such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
> strength capacity...
>
> -RR
>
> 2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
>> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
>> walls and slabs.
>>
>> -g
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I should explain a bit more...  8" Concrete Column.  The
>> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
>> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
>> > diaphragm ...
>> >
>> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> > *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> > *
>> > *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>> > *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>> > *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> > *
>> > *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
>> > *
>> > *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
>> > *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> > *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> > *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
>> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -gm
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
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> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
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******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
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*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
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--
-gm

Re: 8" Columns

Also, do not forget the fireproofing issue.  An 8" column, even if allowed by the ACI code, may not satisfy the fire code (depending on your jurisdiction and version of the code).  My office uses 12" as the smallest column dimension from both a practical standpoint and a fireproofing standpoint.

Daniel

----- Original Message ----
From: "Gerard Madden, SE" <gmse4603@gmail.com>
To: seaint@seaint.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 8:21:58 PM
Subject: Re: 8" Columns

But it's higher E doesn't offset the geometric reductions in I, S, Z, r, J, etc...and would not be as strong as a 3000psi 12"x12" for most failure modes except possible pure axial compression (depending on the unbraced length) and shear.

f`c has very little to do with capacity for flexure or beam-column elements when even a slight eccentric axial load is applied. Slenderness governs most capacity checks in column design.

Why not use a TS filled or encased in concrete instead?

Also, but the time you radius the ties and clear cover requirements, the bars are so close together your d is virtually nothing.

-g

On 10/5/07, Alex C. Nacionales <anacionales@insightts.net> wrote:
David,

    8"x8" RC columns with Fc'=10000psi has more
compressive strength than a 3000 psi 12"x12" column.
The 8" column would be more expensive i am sure but Architects sometimes
limits dimesions for aesthetic reasons.

Alex C. Nacionales


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fisher" <dfisher@fpse.com>
To: < seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: 8" Columns


> 8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"
>
> Not much section left!
>
> I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher SE PE
> Senior Director
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
> Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
> 372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
> 75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
> 319 A Street Boston 02210
>
>
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 facsimile
> 312.622.0409 mobile
>
> www.ccgch.com
> www.fpse.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: refugio rochin [mailto: fugeeo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: 8" Columns
>
> That is not true.  ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
> members of special moment frames.
> ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
> by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
> dimensions.
>
> I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
> member that has to accept seismic displacements?  Is there any
> research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
> displacements, and their strength capacities?  I do not want to design
> such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
> strength capacity...
>
> -RR
>
> 2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
>> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
>> walls and slabs.
>>
>> -g
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I should explain a bit more...  8" Concrete Column.  The
>> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
>> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
>> > diaphragm ...
>> >
>> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> > *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> > *
>> > *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>> > *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>> > *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> > *
>> > *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
>> > *
>> > *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
>> > *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> > *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> > *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
>> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -gm
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
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> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
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*   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
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--
-gm

Friday, October 5, 2007

Re: 8" Columns

But it's higher E doesn't offset the geometric reductions in I, S, Z, r, J, etc...and would not be as strong as a 3000psi 12"x12" for most failure modes except possible pure axial compression (depending on the unbraced length) and shear.

f`c has very little to do with capacity for flexure or beam-column elements when even a slight eccentric axial load is applied. Slenderness governs most capacity checks in column design.

Why not use a TS filled or encased in concrete instead?

Also, but the time you radius the ties and clear cover requirements, the bars are so close together your d is virtually nothing.

-g

On 10/5/07, Alex C. Nacionales <anacionales@insightts.net> wrote:
David,

    8"x8" RC columns with Fc'=10000psi has more
compressive strength than a 3000 psi 12"x12" column.
The 8" column would be more expensive i am sure but Architects sometimes
limits dimesions for aesthetic reasons.

Alex C. Nacionales


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fisher" <dfisher@fpse.com>
To: < seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: 8" Columns


> 8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"
>
> Not much section left!
>
> I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher SE PE
> Senior Director
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
> Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
> 372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
> 75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
> 319 A Street Boston 02210
>
>
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 facsimile
> 312.622.0409 mobile
>
> www.ccgch.com
> www.fpse.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: refugio rochin [mailto: fugeeo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: 8" Columns
>
> That is not true.  ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
> members of special moment frames.
> ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
> by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
> dimensions.
>
> I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
> member that has to accept seismic displacements?  Is there any
> research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
> displacements, and their strength capacities?  I do not want to design
> such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
> strength capacity...
>
> -RR
>
> 2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
>> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
>> walls and slabs.
>>
>> -g
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I should explain a bit more...  8" Concrete Column.  The
>> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
>> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
>> > diaphragm ...
>> >
>> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> > *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> > *
>> > *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>> > *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>> > *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> > *
>> > *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
>> > *
>> > *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
>> > *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> > *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> > *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
>> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -gm
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********



--
-gm

Re: 8" Columns

David,

8"x8" RC columns with Fc'=10000psi has more
compressive strength than a 3000 psi 12"x12" column.
The 8" column would be more expensive i am sure but Architects sometimes
limits dimesions for aesthetic reasons.

Alex C. Nacionales


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fisher" <dfisher@fpse.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: 8" Columns


> 8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"
>
> Not much section left!
>
> I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher SE PE
> Senior Director
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
> Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
> 372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
> 75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
> 319 A Street Boston 02210
>
>
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 facsimile
> 312.622.0409 mobile
>
> www.ccgch.com
> www.fpse.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: refugio rochin [mailto:fugeeo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: 8" Columns
>
> That is not true. ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
> members of special moment frames.
> ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
> by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
> dimensions.
>
> I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
> member that has to accept seismic displacements? Is there any
> research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
> displacements, and their strength capacities? I do not want to design
> such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
> strength capacity...
>
> -RR
>
> 2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
>> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
>> walls and slabs.
>>
>> -g
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
>> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
>> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
>> > diaphragm ...
>> >
>> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> > *
>> > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>> > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>> > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> > *
>> > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
>> > *
>> > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
>> > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
>> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -gm
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
*
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
* Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
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******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********

Re: 8" Columns

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fisher" <dfisher@fpse.com>
To: <seaint@seaint.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: 8" Columns


> 8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"
>
> Not much section left!
>
> I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher SE PE
> Senior Director
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
> Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
> 372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
> 75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
> 319 A Street Boston 02210
>
>
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 facsimile
> 312.622.0409 mobile
>
> www.ccgch.com
> www.fpse.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: refugio rochin [mailto:fugeeo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
> To: seaint@seaint.org
> Subject: Re: 8" Columns
>
> That is not true. ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
> members of special moment frames.
> ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
> by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
> dimensions.
>
> I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
> member that has to accept seismic displacements? Is there any
> research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
> displacements, and their strength capacities? I do not want to design
> such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
> strength capacity...
>
> -RR
>
> 2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
>> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
>> walls and slabs.
>>
>> -g
>>
>>
>> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
>> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
>> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
>> > diaphragm ...
>> >
>> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
>> > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
>> > *
>> > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
>> > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
>> > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
>> > *
>> > *

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>> > *
>> > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
>> > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
>> > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
>> > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
>> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -gm
>
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RE: AISC Table X (9th Ed.) or Table 10-9a (13th Ed.)

 
Check out the AISC Journal from about 25 years ago. There was research done on A307 SP connections with formulas. The design usually required slotted holes. I used to use it all the time. I still have spread sheets that include A307's for these connections. As far as I know, nothing prohibits their use other than lack of a readily available design procedure. AISC abandoned the procedure probably because A307 bolts are not fashionable enough.<g>
 
 

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928

mark@rstavares.com

www.rstavares.com

 

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY  NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.

 


From: Bill Allen [mailto:T.W.Allen@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:13 PM
To: 'Bill Allen'; seaint@seaint.org
Subject: AISC Table X (9th Ed.) or Table 10-9a (13th Ed.)

What do I use (table or procedure) if I want to use A-307 bolts in a single plate connection?

 

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E.

ALLEN DESIGNS

Consulting Structural Engineers
 
V (949) 248-8588 F(949) 209-2509

RE: 8" Columns

Try section 21.4.1.1 (from "Special moment frame members subjected to
bending and axial loads")"

"21.4.1.1 - The shortest cross-sectional dimension, measured on a straight
line passing through the geometric centroid, shall not be less than 12 in."

This same provision is in the 1997 UBC as a more "general" requirement of
ALL columns in seismic areas. When ACI 318 introduced the provision, they
changed it so that it only applied to special moment frames.

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI

-----Original Message-----
From: refugio rochin [mailto:fugeeo@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:21 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: 8" Columns


That is not true. ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
members of special moment frames. ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not
proportioned to resist forces induced by earthquake motions, does not place
any restrictions on the minimum dimensions.

I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a member
that has to accept seismic displacements? Is there any research in the
realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design displacements, and their
strength capacities? I do not want to design such a member and have it bust
due to seismic loads and lose vertical strength capacity...

-RR

2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other
> than walls and slabs.
>
> -g
>
>
> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
> > diaphragm ...
> >
> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > *
> > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > *
> > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > *
> > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
> > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -gm

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AISC Table X (9th Ed.) or Table 10-9a (13th Ed.)

What do I use (table or procedure) if I want to use A-307 bolts in a single plate connection?

 

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E.

ALLEN DESIGNS

Consulting Structural Engineers
 
V (949) 248-8588 F(949) 209-2509

RE: 8" Columns

8" - 2*1.5" (cover) - 2* 0.375" (ties) = 4 1/4"

Not much section left!

I've seen 8" sonotubes under a porch, but thats it.

David L. Fisher SE PE
Senior Director

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd. - Cayman
Fisher+Partners Structural Engineers Ltd. - Cayman
372 West Ontario Chicago 60610
75 Fort Street Georgetown Grand Cayman BWI
319 A Street Boston 02210


312.573.1701
312.573.1726 facsimile
312.622.0409 mobile

www.ccgch.com
www.fpse.com


-----Original Message-----
From: refugio rochin [mailto:fugeeo@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:21 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: 8" Columns

That is not true. ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
members of special moment frames.
ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
dimensions.

I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
member that has to accept seismic displacements? Is there any
research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
displacements, and their strength capacities? I do not want to design
such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
strength capacity...

-RR

2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
> walls and slabs.
>
> -g
>
>
> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
> > diaphragm ...
> >
> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > *
> > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > *
> > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > *
> > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
> > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -gm

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Re: 8" Columns

That is not true. ACI 21.3.1.4 allows for a width of 10" for Flexural
members of special moment frames.
ACI 21.11 for Frame Members not proportioned to resist forces induced
by earthquake motions, does not place any restrictions on the minimum
dimensions.

I am mainly wondering how most people approach the design of such a
member that has to accept seismic displacements? Is there any
research in the realm of 8" concrete members undergoing design
displacements, and their strength capacities? I do not want to design
such a member and have it bust due to seismic loads and lose vertical
strength capacity...

-RR

2007/10/5, Gerard Madden, SE <gmse4603@gmail.com>:
> 12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than
> walls and slabs.
>
> -g
>
>
> On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
> > column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
> > overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
> > diaphragm ...
> >
> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > * Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > *
> > * This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > * Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > * subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > *
> > *

http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > *
> > * Questions to seaint-ad@seaint.org . Remember, any email you
> > * send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > * without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > * site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -gm

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Re: Radiused angle ledger

Conrad and Gary, I thank you for the link and wisdom! Looks like my angle will get beefed up a bit and can make the radius.

Can he get the steel to Morgan Hill, CA cheaper than the local steel guy? I'd like to get you that beer if possible :-)  Tell him to buy you one anyway, he's your brother!

-g

On 10/5/07, Gary L. Hodgson and Assoc. <ghodgson@bellnet.ca> wrote:
Gerard,
Go with as thick a member as you can.  All those rules about local
buckling apply.  For example,  instead of a L4x4x1/4, use an L2.5
x2.5x3/8  and instead of MC10x8.4, use the heaviest 6" or 8" standard
channel, you can get.  The lighter members will end up looking like a
krinkle potato chip--not that there is anything wrong with krinkle
potato chips.
You can google Hodgson Custom Rolling for further advice although I am
sure there are other rolling suppliers. If you buy something, then my
brother will buy me a beer.
Gary


Gerard Madden, SE wrote:
> I've got a curved CMU wall with a tight radius (5.5 ft) that I need to
> provide a ledger for metal deck w/ concrete fill (on inside of curve)
>
> The CMU wall continues up above the slab to form a parapet/guardrail
> (it's a landing on an exterior stairwell).
>
> I was thinking that radius-ing an angle would be difficult (to
> maintain flatness) since it's not doubly symmetric, but maybe it's
> done all the time???
>
> What about radius-in a MC10x8.4 with the toes going toward the center
> of the radius?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> -gm

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--
-gm

Re: 8" Columns

12" is the minimum dimension for a concrete structural member other than walls and slabs.

-g

On 10/5/07, refugio rochin < fugeeo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I should explain a bit more...  8" Concrete Column.  The
column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
diaphragm ...

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--
-gm

8" Columns

I think I should explain a bit more... 8" Concrete Column. The
column should be able to take the lateral deformation imposed by the
overall structure though, which is generally attached to a rigid
diaphragm ...

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8" COLUMNS

Has anyone dealt with using 8" columns in seismic regions? If the
column is not a seismic resisting column?

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Invitation to Dr. Charles H. Thornton's Seminar on UC Campus-Oct 8-2007, 1:00-2:00 Sibley Aud.

Dear Seaint Friend: I am delighted to invite you to a seminar on:
"Structural Engineering in the 21st Century-Changing Practices" to be
given by Dr. Charles H. Thornton, one of the most preeminent structural
engineers and educators in the world, in Sibley Auditorium, Bechtel
Engineering Center, UC Berkeley Campus on Monday October 8, 2007,
1:00-2:00 pm.

The text of announcement is below along with a short introduction on Dr.
Thornton. For more information and a one-page announcement of the
seminar please refer to http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh. A resume of
Dr. Thornton is at: http://www.chtandcompany.com/charleshthornton1.html

I had invited Dr. Thornton to give his seminar to a joint meeting of my
students in CE122-Design of Steel Structures and E36-Engineering
Mechanics I-Statics courses. He has honored us all by accepting the
invitation and has agreed for me to open the seminar to the campus
community and the public so that others also can attend.

Please forward the announcement below to all who might be interested.
Sincerely,
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E., Professor
University of California, Berkeley
www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh
=======================
Structural Engineering Seminar

"Structural Engineering in the 21st Century-Changing Practices"

By
Charles H. Thornton Ph.D, PE,Founding Principal-Thornton Tomasetti,
(www.thorntontomasetti.com)
Chairman- Charles H. Thornton and Company, LLC
(cthornton@chtandcompany.com)
Date: Monday October 8, 2007, Time: 1:00-2:00PM, Place: Sibley
Auditorium, UC Berkeley Campus
A map of Campus is at: http://www.berkeley.edu/map/maps/large_map.html

Abstract: Building Information Models (BIM), Computer Numerically
Controlled (CNC) fabrication,Performance Based Engineering is causing
startling
changes in both the practice and delivery of structuralengineering
services. The time is now for the structural engineer to step up and
into a new
leadership role in the industry. Through examples such as Petronas
Towers, Taipei 101, NY Times HQ,Soldier Field, DC Baseball and many
other projects,
Dr. Thornton will discuss these Changing Practices.

Speaker: Dr. Charles H Thornton is one of the most preeminent structural
engineers and educators in the world. He has led the
structural design of some of the most important and monumental
structures worldwide, including the Taipei-101 in Taiwan, currently the
tallest building in the world, as well the Petronas towers in Malaysia,
the second tallest building in the world. In addition, Dr. Thornton
has taught courses in structural engineering for many years as visiting
and adjunct professor. Dr. Thornton is currently Chairman of
Charles H. Thornton & Company , LLC, a management and strategic
consulting firm and continues as a consultant to The Thornton-
Tomasetti Group, Inc. Through December 2004, he was Co- Chairman of The
Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc., a 500- person
organization providing engineering and architectural services, failure
analysis, hazard mitigation, and disaster response services. He is the
founder of the ACE Mentor Program, a non-profit organization that, each
year offers guidance and training to inner city high schools
students in architecture, construction and engineering in cities across
the U.S.

For more information refer to www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh
===========================================

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Re: Radiused angle ledger

Gerard,
Go with as thick a member as you can. All those rules about local
buckling apply. For example, instead of a L4x4x1/4, use an L2.5
x2.5x3/8 and instead of MC10x8.4, use the heaviest 6" or 8" standard
channel, you can get. The lighter members will end up looking like a
krinkle potato chip--not that there is anything wrong with krinkle
potato chips.
You can google Hodgson Custom Rolling for further advice although I am
sure there are other rolling suppliers. If you buy something, then my
brother will buy me a beer.
Gary


Gerard Madden, SE wrote:
> I've got a curved CMU wall with a tight radius (5.5 ft) that I need to
> provide a ledger for metal deck w/ concrete fill (on inside of curve)
>
> The CMU wall continues up above the slab to form a parapet/guardrail
> (it's a landing on an exterior stairwell).
>
> I was thinking that radius-ing an angle would be difficult (to
> maintain flatness) since it's not doubly symmetric, but maybe it's
> done all the time???
>
> What about radius-in a MC10x8.4 with the toes going toward the center
> of the radius?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> -gm

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Thursday, October 4, 2007

RE: Radiused angle ledger

Try the following:

 

http://www.rollco.com.au/pdf/CapacityInfo.pdf

 

It gives the minimum bend radii possible for various sections. Admittedly it is for Australia and Australian sections but at least  gives the basic idea.

 

Regards

Conrad Harrison

B.Tech (mfg & mech), MIIE, gradTIEAust

mailto:sch.tectonic@bigpond.com

Adelaide

South Australia


From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmse4603@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 5 October 2007 07:03
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Radiused angle ledger

 

I've got a curved CMU wall with a tight radius (5.5 ft) that I need to provide a ledger for metal deck w/ concrete fill (on inside of curve)

The CMU wall continues up above the slab to form a parapet/guardrail (it's a landing on an exterior stairwell).

I was thinking that radius-ing an angle would be difficult (to maintain flatness) since it's not doubly symmetric, but maybe it's done all the time???

What about radius-in a MC10x8.4 with the toes going toward the center of the radius?

TIA

--
-gm

Radiused angle ledger

I've got a curved CMU wall with a tight radius (5.5 ft) that I need to provide a ledger for metal deck w/ concrete fill (on inside of curve)

The CMU wall continues up above the slab to form a parapet/guardrail (it's a landing on an exterior stairwell).

I was thinking that radius-ing an angle would be difficult (to maintain flatness) since it's not doubly symmetric, but maybe it's done all the time???

What about radius-in a MC10x8.4 with the toes going toward the center of the radius?

TIA

--
-gm

RE: S1 and Ss by address

And you can download the Java application to your computer so that you don't have to keep going back to the website (and thus remember the website).  I have had it sitting on my desktop for a couple months now.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
Adrian, MI
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Blomberg [mailto:paul.blomberg@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:28 PM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: Re: S1 and Ss by address

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/

On 10/4/07, Mark Deardorff <mark@rstavares.com> wrote:
A few months ago someone posted a link to the website that provides this information. It had a nifty java app and would look up the values by address or Lat/Long. could someone post that for me?
 
Thanks,
 

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego , CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928

mark@rstavares.com

www.rstavares.com

 

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY  NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.

 

RE: S1 and Ss by address

Mark,

That site is no longer working.  I created a website that linked over to the USGS website, but the link I was using has been removed and I can no longer access their site directly to convert the values.  If you go to http://geocoder.us/ this site will convert any address to a lat/long, which then you have to go and open up the java application at http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php to obtain the Ss and S1 values.  Both of these steps are exactly what I was doing, except that it was all doing it behind the scenes.

 

John Atilano, P.E.

 


From: Mark Deardorff [mailto:mark@rstavares.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:26 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: S1 and Ss by address

 

A few months ago someone posted a link to the website that provides this information. It had a nifty java app and would look up the values by address or Lat/Long. could someone post that for me?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928
mark@rstavares.com
www.rstavares.com

 

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY  NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.

 

RE: S1 and Ss by address (handy-dandy link)

Mark:
 
Here's that hand-dandy link that I posted a few weeks ago.
 
Regards
Casey (Khashayar) Hemmatyar
<
khemmatyar@hotmail.com >
 
 
Step 1: Go to https://sdlc3d.sun.com/ECom/EComActionServlet/DownloadPage:~:com.sun.sunit.sdlc.content.DownloadPageInfo;jsessionid=2B180343DF457F54F40C707C4D8972AD;jsessionid=2B180343DF457F54F40C707C4D8972AD
and install "Windows Platform - Java Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 12" (preferably select the "Online Installation")

Step 2: Go to http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/index.php#install_java and install "Java Ground Motion Parameter Calculator - Version 5.0.7 (3.5 MB) "
Step 3: The "Seismic Hazard Curves &* Uniform Hazard Response Spectra" display will open.
Step 4: on the very top right corner use the pull down menu to choose the appropriate Code (in this case IBC 2006)
Step 5: Enter the zip code or the Latitude/Longitude to get the result.

P.S. Based on Dr. S.K. Ghosh suggestion, entering the Latitude/Longitude will result in more accurate output. You can get the Latitude/Longitude from google.com or other sites.
 
 

From: Mark Deardorff [mailto: mark@rstavares.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:26 AM
To: seaint@seaint.org
Subject: S1 and Ss by address

 

A few months ago someone posted a link to the website that provides this information. It had a nifty java app and would look up the values by address or Lat/Long. could someone post that for me?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego, CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928
mark@rstavares.com
www.rstavares.com

 

Re: S1 and Ss by address

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/research/hazmaps/design/

On 10/4/07, Mark Deardorff <mark@rstavares.com> wrote:
A few months ago someone posted a link to the website that provides this information. It had a nifty java app and would look up the values by address or Lat/Long. could someone post that for me?
 
Thanks,
 

Mark E. Deardorff, SE
R & S Tavares Associates, Inc
9815 Carroll Canyon Road
Suite 206
San Diego , CA 92131
Phone: 858-444-3344
Phone: 209-863-8928

mark@rstavares.com

www.rstavares.com

 

CONFIDENTIALITY AND SECURITY  NOTICE:
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain confidential and proprietary information and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected by law. It may be read and used solely by the intended recipient(s), and any review, use or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender and delete this e-mail, including any attachments, from your system immediately without reading, copying or distributing them. Thank you for your cooperation. R&S Tavares Associates Inc. and its client retain all proprietary rights they may have in the information.